The Current State of the Fake Truth Movement - Halloween 2009

gretavo's picture

On the suggestion of juandelacruz, reposting this comment to start a discussion about how we think the game has changed (especially at with regard to controlling the truth movement...


i think they realize gold's credibility capital is spent

so they've turned things over to "Loose Nuke" aka "rancho truth" (at truefaction), aka Erik Larsen and a few others there. Now it looks like the role of blatant disinfo is being played by demolition deniers (with JMartelxiv aka Justin Martel of student scholars for truth subbing for Gold) while the subtle disinfo earns credibility capital by attacking him and a few others, which they will then spend on things like supporting the bogus 9/11 health bill (see ) and whatever else the cover-up crew decides needs to have the appearance of broad support in the truth movement...


So... let's hear what the ever skeptical and perceptive band of WTCD regulars thinks!

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juandelacruz's picture

thanks RT!

I think the presence of R Hordon and other established truthers with a significant following was a foot in the door at While in earlier times they just expelled truthers who did not toe the LIHOP line that was enforced by the moderators and anointed members, it seems they now have to accommodate some persistent and honest truthers who are not afraid to confront Jon Gold and his cheering squad.

I would like to think that the constant pressure and info from has had at least some impact in exposing the LIHOP charlatans posing as truthers at 911B and that the recent changes there are the result.

Of course we can't blindly endorse anyone, so I trust everyone will be on their toes and pointing out any disinfo wherever and whoever it comes from.

Congrats to all.

gretavo's picture

agreed, thanks juan

I also think that the whole "we've gotten nowhere in the last 8 years" griping that's now in evidence over at 911B has something to do with quite the opposite phenomenon--freed of our LIHOP deadweight we are beginning to see real progress. Yes, it's agonizingly slow, but that's because we haven't been focusing ENOUGH on objective physical evidence, not too much. I've noticed an uptick in interest since I started holding the AE911Truth banner during my daily demo. People read it and look like they're thinking about what it means, as opposed to thinking "oh there's that conspiracy guy". A few more are starting to stop and chat, and it's so easy to just go through the physical evidence without accusing anyone of anything.

Annoymouse's picture

I think a lot of the "we

I think a lot of the "we have got nowhere" griping is actually asking 'where can we go from here?' Whilst the most obvious and important course is raising awareness, (and I share your concerns of narrowing down that awareness to what can be most easily proved ie CD), It is clear that there is no representation politically and in fact the whole 2 party system is a sham, The MSM are as shut to 911truth today as they have always been and that for all of the reasons of denial listed on this site, there will come a point where awareness (and perhaps motivation) peaks unless there is something that those concerned can do about it.

I for one am concerned that I cannot find any discussion online of possible action that could lead to change, whether it be the promotion of a 3rd political party or any other course. It seems to me that the movement needs some objectives other than awareness to effect change and utilize all the motivation that has been achieved so far. I accept and value your cynicism for the NYCCAN ballot but at least it offered some hope of potential change whilst it lasted.

In particular, I share the concerns of Allende Admirer on this thread
"There is likely to be only a short window of opportunity before net neutrality is destroyed (see McCain's new bill and the intentions of the Neoconservatives to achieve full spectrum dominance including the internet). ISP's will be allowed to prioritize or censor web content -probably with arguments to curb extremism & enforce copyright etc.

When that time comes, unless the 911 truth movement has been turned into a political force, it will be eliminated overnight."

gretavo's picture

i'm a big believer in the idea that...

"when enough people know, something will happen..."

Jpass's picture

Same Tune, Different Key

"I also think that the whole "we've gotten nowhere in the last 8 years" griping that's now in evidence over at 911B has something to do with quite the opposite phenomenon--freed of our LIHOP deadweight we are beginning to see real progress. Yes, it's agonizingly slow, but that's because we haven't been focusing ENOUGH on objective physical evidence, not too much."

That about says it all for me.

The fake 9/11 Truthers continue to whistle the same tune. The pitch is getting higher which can easily be seen in Justin Martells latest pissing and moaning about Controlled Demolition. Oddly, it's actually quite pleasing to my ears though!

What is changing is the Real Truth Movement's confidence and willingness to stand up to bullies like Jon Gold, Justin Martell, Bill Douglas etc. etc. etc. And it's willingness to slap down illogical arguments that encourage us to embrace blatant false-hoods in the name of getting the main-stream to consider 9/11 Truth.

I've especially been impressed with Adam Syed over at and the CIT fiasco.

Adam Syed's picture

That Adam Syed dude has been

That Adam Syed dude has been slaying the Pentagon anti-truth dragons!

gretavo's picture

eh... i think he's a bit too fanatical about the flyover theory

All we really need to argue re: the Pentagon is that not only should nothing have been allowed to fly into it, nothing in fact has been proven to have done so. All we need to know is there was a big explosion there that has not been adequately explained--that has in fact been attributed to a series of events so implausible as to amount to an impossibility, which indicates deception consistent with a cover-up.

Adam Syed's picture


If the north path is established beyond a reasonable doubt, which it seems to be, and if the directional damage was staged from light pole 1 to the C Ring, I'm curious as to what other scenario you might propose. I know that Craig Ranke is very adamant that "a north approach proves flyover" and indeed some perhaps many people are uncomfortable with this attitude. However, I find it myself to be the logical conclusion given the photographic evidence that shows very clearly that a large airliner did not crash there. What else could possibly have happened? If a large aircraft was approaching the building and did not hit, then what else could have happened other than a flyover?

Chris Sarns has been doing an amusing job at trying to answer this question. He has come up with a scenario of a 737 north side impact.

casseia's picture

I think part of the problem is choice of words.

I think the CIT guys undermine the strength of their DATA by being so strident about their CONCLUSIONS. It's plenty to say that they have first-person witness accounts of a contradictory flight plan.

Adam Syed's picture

Just to play devil's advocate...

Couldn't that same argument be used against Richard Gage et al? For example one could say: "Gage and his group present very important points and present impressive facts, and raise some really eye opening questions. But they undermine their credibility by jumping to CONCLUSIONS about CD when in fact the entire scientific community in the world is not united behind this."

casseia's picture

I'm speaking just from a discourse analysis perspective...

and I suspect if you looked carefully at the language Gage uses, he says things more like "The speed of the collapse is not compatible with what we know about any kind of destruction other than explosive demolition" rather than "CD is an indisputable fact." We all agree that it is, and at this site most of us agree that there is no way a big jet hit the Pentagon based on what was left behind. For that matter, we also agree that CIT has good evidence contradicting the official flightplan. But apart from the one eyewitness, flyover is an inference. People rightfully balk at CIT's heavy-handed insistence that this inference is anything other than an inference.

juandelacruz's picture

Free fall acceleration at

Free fall acceleration at WTC 7 is only compatible with CD and no other known collapse mode given the structure of interest. That free fall acceleration has been confirmed by NIST itself. Since acceleration can be measured by any scientist presented with the video evidence, I think no scientist with an honest understanding of Newtonian physics will disagree that WTC 7 was demolished. The only way to say that WTC 7 was not demolished would require that a scientist posit some BS theory that the steel structure of WTC 7 could be compressed as easily and quickly as thin air.

Notice that in this case, we are not relying on any witness testimony, the evidence is recorded on multiple video clips and the test of the theory's validity is scientific, repeatable and objective. For this reason I think that the CD of WTC7 is irrefutable and much more robust compared to the Pentagon flyover theory.

I do support the Pentagon flyover theory, but I think more work needs to be done before I consider it equal to controlled demolition of WTC.

Annoymouse's picture

a foolish criticism

if you waited till the 'entire scientific community' was behind you, youd be waiting for ever. What a foolish criticism!

kate of the kiosk's picture

so strident

yes. i was thinking how to put this, but it's like they insist  once we all see their films and evidence, we will never, ever, ever, again have any doubt. there will be no questions...i mean wtf? that turned me off to even finishing their presentations. sorry

juandelacruz's picture

Pitching in my own theory,

Pitching in my own theory,

Theory 1
As CIT posits, a large aircraft flew over the Pentagon approaching from north of CITGO, then explosives create damage along the route described in the OCT.

Theory 2
1. a large aircraft approached the Pentagon via north of CITGO and corroborated by witnesses questioned by CIT
2. if it was a large RPV rather than an airliner, it could have impacted the Pentagon from that north angle, but explosives created the damage along the official impact route (south of CITGO angle) including the downed light poles to simulate a larger aircraft (a case of misalignment)
3. the RPV impact explains:
a. the engine allegedly photographed inside the Pentagon,
b. the small impact entry hole,
c. the small object flying in the released Penatagon video

Do I feel strongly about theory 2, not really, theory 1 is my bet, but I do not rule out theory 2 as of now.

I think CIT has done valuable research on the Pentagon, and I think it pretty much confirms that an airliner did not impact the Pentagon. I am less convinced at the moment though that theory 1 is the only explanation of what transpired. Further research and evidence would probably support CIT's theory or else lead to new ones. But I think that confirming an airliner did not hit the Pentagon is big enough a victory, just as free fall acceleration of WTC7, for me confirms that it was demolished, and details about whether nano thermite, or conventional explosives were used is a secondary (though still very important) concern that can be threshed out in further investigation.

I am not advocating that anyone rest where we are. Officials won't do any real investigating unless forced to. So citizen investigators such as CIT, Steven Jones, et al are our best source of info until such time that the citizenry take back their government from the perps.

Adam Syed's picture

What's an RPV?

What's an RPV?

juandelacruz's picture

oops, RPV stands for

oops, RPV stands for remotely piloted vehicle.

Adam Syed's picture

Cool, thanx

Cool, thanx

gretavo's picture

to things I don't put too much stock in...

1) The five frames allegedly showing something flying into the Pentagon. the whole idea that you would release only the evidence from the lamest camera to capture the event (if it's true that those cameras only record one frame per half second which I don't necessarily believe) is ridiculous and suggests to me they needed something that they could credibly falsify. 5 frames are much easier to fake than 30 frames.

2) Alleged eyewitness testimony. While I have no evidence that the CIT witnesses are acting, neither can I easily dismiss the possibility.

Given the weakness of these two batches of evidence, I believe the best approach to questioning what really happened at the Pentagon is to first and foremost insist the official story be proven. A flyover is not proof that AA77 didn't fly into the Pentagon, after all. All those north side witnesses could have been distracted by the flyover plane and not noticed AA77 flying along its normal course. Not saying that's realistic but someone could argue that and we'd be back at square one trying to explain to people that what matters is not whetehr a plane flew over the Pentagon but whether AA77 flew into it.

Keenan's picture

Good points, I mostly agree

It's strange, though, that their attempt at falsification of the 5 frames was so lame that they almost seemed to want to invite suspicion about why there is nothing resembling a large plane in any of the frames. What's your theory as to why they didn't at least try to make it look like a large plane hit the Pentagon in the faked frames?

"While I have no evidence that the CIT witnesses are acting, neither can I easily dismiss the possibility."

Are you saying that you don't feel it is possible to figure out whether or not the CIT witnesses are legitimate, or are you arguing more along the lines that since there is always at least a small possibility, however miniscule it may be, that all the witnesses could be wrong or acting (lying), that witness testimony can never compete with physical evidence and is therefore never good enough to draw any conclusions?

First of all, in criminal investigations physical evidence usually trumps witness testimony, IF it is a) readily available, and b) not planted. Otherwise, witness testimony can become the strongest evidence. In that regard, the process of Assessing the Credibility of Witnesses is an often crucial step in the criminal investigation. More weight is given to witnesses who are: a) verified and credible (consistent and specific and reasonable), b) not a suspect in the crime, c) do not have some conflict of interest in which what they are claiming merely matches what would be expected or predicted to be in their interest to protect themselves or derive some significant benefit from, and d) corroborated and not contradicted by other credible witnesses.

Based on what I've observed regarding the methods CIT used in following up witnesses, many of whom were initially quoted in media-mined snippets immediately after the event, and verifying their whereabouts and other aspects that have significant bearing on their credibility, I'm pretty comfortable with being able to judge whether or not they are legitimate or not. I would think that to just dismiss them as "possibly actors" or "I have no idea" in this situation may be passing the buck too fast. I think it is our responsibility to parse this information and at least try to determine for ourselves if these witnesses are credible or not, because a large body of corroborated witness statements can serve as crucial evidence.

gretavo's picture

put all those witnesses on the stand, under oath

and their credibility would increase in my eyes--not necessarily too 100%, but they would have shown themselves willing to risk being charged with perjury if they weren't telling the truth.

as for faking the video frames, you always prefer something ambiguous that people can argue about to something unambiguous that can be easily proved a forgery. making convincing fakes is not easy, sometimes aiming low is most effective, counterintuitive as that may sound!

Keenan's picture

Sure, but barring some magical breakthrough in our

ability to get our day in court, which so far has seemed futile, it seems like an awfully long and frustrating time to wait to consider this evidence. In the meantime, is there no other way you would feel comfortable in analyzing and assessing witness evidence to try to figure out the truth, or at least to a reasonable standard of confidence?

Obviously, once we have our day in court and obtain subpoena powers, we will be able to discover a lot of the answers to what happened that day way beyond what we can know for sure at this point. But look what we have been able to learn so far in this research/truth movement without having to wait for a court trial. Personally, a court trial is not really my main goal for this cause, as I don't really see much of a chance of this thoroughly corrupted system to provide any real justice, let alone be saved and reformed into a democratic and just system. A more realistic goal in my eyes is to be able to show a large enough number of people at some point how totally illegitimate this government is so that we can get to work building a new system of government, and it's hard to think of a tool more powerful in this regard than 9/11 truth.

kate of the kiosk's picture

as far as i'm concerned

no plane ever went into the pentagon.  that was my first reason for 911 truth. no plane hit the pentagon, period. so CIT is what? to disprove, by witness testimony, that a plane existed but did not hit so therefore had to fly over?

why are there not more witnesses pulled from the ground, from the building,  like April Gallup who was in the building, heard the explosion, suffered the explosion, survived the explosion,  heard no plane, saw no plane, smelled no fuel, felt no fuel on her bare feet, saw the hole, came out the hole, and was told what she saw and told what to say?!...why has CIT not pursued this further with more witnesses of this kind of ilk???


Keenan's picture

Hi Kate

The lack of evidence of a 757 impact in the Pentagon was the second smoking gun type of physical evidence that made me a truther, after discovering the obvious WTC demolitions.

As far as CIT goes:

1) I'm not convinced that they started out with any agenda to prove any specific theory about what really happened at the Pentagon, but instead seemed to have formulated the NoC path conclusion and the flyover theory after they went and researched the witness testimony and discovered some surprising and convincing corroborated witness evidence.

2) I'm mainly interested in the evidence that was brought to light by the hard work of CIT and could care less about the personalities or characters of the messengers and the drama, much of which was instigated by their detractors. Sure, I agree that Craig and Aldo could have conducted themselves better and more maturely at times, and perhaps could have been less strident about their flyover conclusion. At the same time, however, when considering what they have had to endure with the relentless attacks and over-the-top smear campaign by certain fake LIHOP truthers who we've all come to know and love, it's hard to blame them for some eventual sharp reactions against their abusers. It became pretty clear to me right away that an obvious attempt to suppress evidence and manipulate the truth movement was a large part of the agenda of those who have been trying to destroy and marginalize CIT for a long time. I've learned through experience that such a pattern of "nothing to see here!" and attack the messenger type of behavior usually indicates that there definately IS something to see there.

April Gallup:
Your contention that CIT ignores her is absolutely not true. If you go and watch all the CIT videos and do a search on the CIT forum for "April Gallup", you will actually discover that they discussed her quite a bit, along with any other relevant witnesses as well as physical evidence surrounding the Pentagon bombing/attack on 9/11. Check it out at

It's a good idea to make more of an effort to be more informed and familiar with the researchers and their material before you attack them, so that you can provide an informed critique and avoid making a baseless uninformed attack.

This 17 minute interview of April Gallop by CIT is the longest known interview of April in the public domain:

Portions of her interview are in CIT's "Pentacon" video. Have you ever watched Pentacon?

kate of the kiosk's picture

guns and butter April

may be just as long. not an interview, but a testimonial, quite excellent.

from 3/2007 Justice and Freedom Conference

Irvine CA

i obviously have not viewed all of CIT, only sections. my apologies, at least for stating they had not addressed April Gallop. let's try to keep cool heads here. i am not name calling, just have questions based on gut-feel.



Keenan's picture



gretavo's picture

Run, Cindy, Run!

Jon Gold is planning to crash your party in his Underoos...

Here is the shirt...

I'm getting made for the "Peace of the Action."

Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.


gretavo's picture

artist's rendition...

gretavo's picture

this just in...

Erik "Loose Nuke Skywalker" Larsen to join Gold in D.C.!

gretavo's picture

9/11 truth "leader" teleconference scam

Minutes - October 28, 2009

9/11 Truth Teleconference
Submitted by Jonathan Mark -

Present on the call:

Donald Stahl

Jonathan Mark -

Don Meserlian - Citizens Campaign For 9-11 Truth

Leonard Horowitz -

Richard Gage, AIA,

Ted Walter conveyed his apologies about not joining the telecon due to something serious that came up last minute. I also was notified just before the teleconference that Richard Gage was in an airplane; however, he got on the call right about our concluding moments, and heard the last five minutes or so of Dr. Len Horowitz speaking about components in chem-trails, answering Don Stahl's question.

It was great hearing from Richard Gage, and we tried recapping a very detailed and broad ranging conversation-presentation by Len Horowitz. I wish I had this one recorded; his expertise and connecting the false flag operation of 9/11/01 to this current crisis of a created pandemic is important, but we also learned why his product, OxySilver, and other high quality silver hydrosols, work well in killing pathogens as H1N1.. and most any bacteria, virus, or fungus pathogen.

Dr. Len was clearly warning us of the nature of this "emergency" to pull off a vaccination campaign to spread the live virus and disease, (which could coincide with other crises in the economy and environment), all adding into incentives for the government to place us under martial law "to control the masses."

Dr. Horowitz gives it to mid January for the pandemic crisis to start peaking. He explained his anticipation of this by the very make-up of this lab created virus that is meant to attach to other viruses and even leukemia cancer cells. while the toxins in the vaccine weakens the immune system.. setting the stage.. and with chem-trails adding to chemical and biological agents, Those getting vaccinated will spread the disease. I plan to coordinate a time for Len Horowitz and his associate, investigative reporter, Sherri Kane, and myself join with Kevin Barrett for a discussion on his radio program. This way such a discussion will be archived and available.

Len Horowitz explained a connection with the 9/11 (murder) false flag actions, via a group called “Partnership for New York City.” He has evidence showing their 'involvement with the pandemic’s creation, media persuasions, vaccination preparations, and health official promotions seen everywhere from supermarkets to health clinics.' . . 'Dr. Horowitz wrote to FBI directors, through a team of attorneys assembled to stop the swine flu vaccines from being given.*

But most importantly, len's investigative work has led him to developing an effective silver hydrosol product, which were developed by NASA and lab tests proving its effectiveness in killing pathogens. Len mentioned 3 key elements, 'silver' hydrosol, oxygen covalently bonded and water. Len also fully recommends applying love and prayer to engage the physics of such a charged mineral water.. And yet, its size is small enough to work effectively on pathogen cells.. and safely to leave the body via water fluids.

He mentioned of another scam claiming silver hydrosols are hurting our environment. his oxysilver is ppm on much smaller level than typical colloidal silver..

Comparison of OxySilver to Colloidal Silver

Len replied to my question about how oxysilver can distinguish between a pathogen and good bacteria cell.. People are aware of taking probiotics for good intestinal health.. and especially if taking antibiotics, since it kills everything.. however.. understanding fully len's response will take more pursuit. It is complex and detailed. some mention about this ability is in what i consider the best overview paper on the science-effectiveness of oxysilver.

OXYSILVER™: The Green Technology Making Risky Vaccinations and Toxic Antibiotics Obsolete.
By Leonard G. Horowitz

Testimonial by Jonathan Mark
Item 2 - July 21, 2009 Flyby News

Recommended alternative to over-used
conventional antibiotics and vaccinations:
O X Y S I L V E R™

Dr. Horowitz's

My intention for digging into this subject was due to concern of lab evidence and distribution of such a live virus world-wide.. and trying to change such directions.. or surviving through it. So.. sharing this information with the 9/11 truth community is vital, in my opinion.. and i prefer to take appropriate actions based on my independent analysis and of those i trust (based on their actions). this is why i am encouraging everyone i know NOT to get flu vaccinations or antibiotics and have at least one a bottle of oxysilver on hand, and if you take 2 teaspoons at early stages of a flu, on an empty stomach, a couple times a day, keeping your body in a good alkaline balance (rather than acidic), drinking lots of water, the virus or bacteria infection pathogens will get knocked out, electrocuted, and could be removed quickly from your body. I also use herbs like milk thistle to help my liver organ due to die-off of the spirochetes that i have to deal with from lyme disease. if i hadn't personal success with oxysilver, i would not be recommending it this much. and truthers are very important to me and our world.. i also recommend your consideration to set up an affiliation to get your own oxysilver website page for referrals.. Len designed a market-compensation system that benefits those using and distributing oxysilver.. and the results could show the false medicine-industrialists headed in the wrong direction with their vaccines and bio-weapon research pharmaceuticals.

- - -

So i tried to recap this with richard gage and don stahl near the call's completion.
We were on the phone till 10:25 nyc time.

We are planning the last wednesday in november conference call, but note this is on night prior to Thanksgiving. Ted Walter hopes to be on that call. Richard Gage was willing, but he would be on the other end of our planet.. and will need his sleep nourishment for a wild 14-city tour
Richard was grateful to hear about the article published on his presentation in northampton, mass by the Valley Advocate.

Imperium Watch:
Flying Girders, Falling Towers
22 October 2009 - Valley Advocate - Stephanie Kraft

Richard Gage, AIA, 14-City Tour
New Zealand - Australia - Japan

i also added jerry mazza to the invited list.. he recently reviewed:
The Mysterious Collapse of World Trade Center 7,
Why the Final Official Report about 9/11 is Unscientific and False
By David Ray Griffin

For a review of this book by Jerry Mazza:
"Just Say No to Nist.."

The following is a note from Ted Walter - email - tedwalter{at}nyccan[dot)org
about more we will learn on the November telecon..

Some of this work is on the line on the work of Don Meserlian, who will contact Ted to share details of the evidence and laws he is using in his efforts with Citizens Campaign For 9-11 Truth

NYC CAN will launch:

-a nationwide campaign to pass local resolutions calling for a new investigation, either through local advisory ballot initiatives, or by lobbying supportive city councils where advisory initiatives are not allowed. Other causes like troop withdrawal and impeachment gained and manifested strength through this kind of coordinated national campaign.

-a PR campaign employing former government, military and intelligence
professionals and hiring a PR firm to ensure access to mainstream media and a perfectly crafted public image. Writing of grant proposals for this project, an for the nationwide ballot initiative campaign, is underway. We expect to raise significant sums of money to help make 2010 a watershed year for 9/11 accountability to fully enter the mainstream.

-sustained campaign lobbying new Manhattan DA to open an investigation into the destruction of the buildings.

-getting close to a civil suit brought by 9/11 families so that we will have court ordered subpoena power.

The NYC CAN has 80,000+ petitioners for a new investigation, also the heart and soul of 9/11 victim family members, survivors.. to break through the mind control coverup.. and has our full support..

Thanks for everyone reading this, and supporting truth in our times..

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Please reply if you would want this invitation for monthly teleconferences sent to you or someone else, who is a leader in the 9/11 truth movement or a representative of a 9/11 truth or other related organization.

You can email Jonathan Mark flyby(at}mtdata{dot}com about any agenda items, proposals, or any feedback. Thank You.

9/11 Truth Teleconference
Last Wednesday of each month
9pm et; 6pm pt -
Next One -November 25, 2009


Thanks so much for this!

Please do keep posting the minutes from those calls.

It's terrific to be able to keep up with everything going on.

All of the forward movement is highly motivating.

gretavo's picture

keep an eye on "new" user Mokeyboy...

he keeps bumping the most awful posts over there, and plugging Jon Gold...

Keenan's picture

Another sock puppet, no doubt

was created due to the necessity of the LIHOP gatekeepers regaining control over the discourse and voting after too many real truthers have signed up and tipped the scales away from the fake LIHOP truthers. Perhaps through a combination of continued banning of their detractors and the addition of ever more sock puppets, the fakes can bring things back to a safe artificial consensus.