Excellent discussion about Zionism and 9/11 over at 911Blogger

gretavo's picture

With just one problem--the dancing Israelis never said "their bosses sent them to document the attack as it happened". They said that they were filming the attacks once they realized they were underway so as to document it, much as anyone else who pointed a camera at the towers once they were struck did. The difference of course is that the Dancing Israelis were a) happily doing it and b) according to the FBI working for a Mossad front company. It is such a damning story when told truthfully that we should not make mistakes in telling it, imo.

Comfort Zones....

There is one reason for the "Left gatekeepers'" reticence re. 9/11 that seldom gets mentioned, and I imagine this is because of one particularly powerful and coercive aspect of modern political correctness.

****

9/11 TRUTH DILUTES, OR EVEN REMOVES, MUSLIM CULPABILITY.

This fact, for many, is a huge, massive, "don't even think about it", type of problem... the sort of thing that will cause people to stand there with their fingers in their ears, yelling "Shut up, I do NOT want to hear about it, true or otherwise". This is possibly a reason (amongst others of course) for the blanket censorship of 9/11 on many "Left Gatekeeper" websites.

Right from the time the North Tower came down, the media, the Bush Administration and the powers-that-be in general pinned the blame upon "brown skinned people of the Islamic faith" without any proof or credible evidence. I too, believed the pundits and commentators, alongside the huge majority of the public who easily went along with it; it mapped neatly onto our general pre-programmed comfort zone. We here in the West have been battered by the media for years and years that "all Muslims are terrorists or potential terrorists" and are so used to hearing about Islam and Muslims in a negative sense, and we have collectively developed a sense of familiarity and ease in being able to identify the "boogeymen in the closet", as always being "those bearded guys with funny headgear who don't have the same God as we do and all they think about is killing innocent people".

To put it an alternative way, 9/11 Truth is a big threat to those who regard the world's Muslim community as the arch-enemy, those who have authorized the "war on terrorism", or those who hold hatred towards people of that religious faith, or middle eastern ethnotypes. This brings up an obvious question: Who regards Arabs and Muslims as "the great evil, the permanent enemy"? In amongst the list of those who hold such sentiments, is the "Big UH-OH"... which in turn leads us to an area which is, and remains out of bounds, a taboo, even in the greater 9/11 Truth community, for a set of obvious, strategic reasons.

To offer a personal illustration of such, I shall recall a quite recent and eye-opening experience:

I attended a talk a couple of years ago by a leading light of the 9/11 Truth Movement, for whom I have nothing but the utmost admiration and respect. After the sell-out lecture (which was concise, eloquent, hardhitting and left me with *zero* doubt that 9/11 was an inside job), I waited in a long line at the table as he signed books for audience members. By chance, only a few hours previously, I had watched a clip (on youtube) featuring the infamous "dancing, high-fiving Mossad agents", being interviewed on an Israeli chat show. These guys freely admitted (in Hebrew, with English subtitles), in a public setting, that they had "been sent by their bosses to document the event", by videotaping the attack as it happened. So, as I waited in line, a question formulated itself in my mind: "These agents, on their own admission, had advance knowledge of 9/11, and were thus guilty of 'accessory before the fact' to the worst crime in American history. They were in FBI custody but were let go without charge, and quietly sent home to Israel, and we were told via a government spokesman that evidence linking these people with 9/11 is classified....."

Eventually it was my turn to greet the speaker, and I posed my question. He looked back at me with a slightly bemused expression of "why are you asking ME this?", and "what do expect me to do about it"? In other words, "if I follow this or any similar line of inquiry, I shall be name-called and denounced as a "Jew Hater" or "Holocaust Denier" (alongside Eric Hufschmid and others), and thus trash my reputation? I fully understand his reticence to follow this, or any similar leads that point towards "The Great Unmentionable". It is like the kiss of death.

I personally have no bias towards or against any racial or religious group, that I am aware of. But (largely) because of the Holocaust, we have been taught to avoid any "association with bad things" regarding how we look at history's most persecuted people. Such an attitude, with all good intent I am sure, has become part of our culture.

As to how this attitude translates into looking at, and investigating 9/11, it appears that we have a massive problem of a circular nature on our hands, a deeply embedded roadblock, that we are enforcing and strengthening, much of the time without even realizing it. And worst of all, there is nothing we can do about it, unless we transgress the limits of polite or acceptable areas of inquiry. If we cannot look at and examine *EVERY* aspect of 9/11, then there will always be parts of the puzzle which will remain unsolved, as as such, we face the probability of going to our graves without ever seeing justice being served.

If only that were the only problem

I find your points valid; but what you're talking about here--wrong and difficult though it is--might be termed a kind of 'rational' resistance to 9/11 truth, in that, politcally, there is a kind of tactical 'rationale' behind it. It makes political sense for Zionists to be resistant to any change in the storyline of 9/11 that would shift the blame away from purported opponents of Israel. But what has been talked about for much of this thread is resistance of a different, more peculiar and--in my experience--acutely maddening sort. The kind where different kinds of factors--not necessarily rational motives (like those touched on in some of the comments above)--need to be taken into account. The kind that comes from the very sources that should very much welcome seeing the blame shifted away from Muslims and Arabs and Central Asians.

The kind of resistance, for example, that comes from sources like Counterpunch and Antiwar.com, which routinely criticize Israeli policy, and the influence of the Israeli lobby in the US, and Zionist ideology in general. Or from antiwar activists who are OPPOSED to the wars that Zionists generally DO support; who opposed the sanctions that resulted in so many deaths for the Iraqi people during the '90s; and who, in more recent years, support antiwar actions, and try to make others aware of the horrible effects of war on the people in the countries that the US has invaded. People who DO feel compassion for the people in those countries.

Sometimes, a different kind of 'political correctness' than the one you describe can rear its ugly head. When truth activists try to point out that the scale of the operation was beyond the capabilty of a loose organization of Muslim guerrillas--and that it instead would be more characteristic of sophisticated intelligence organizations--then we sometimes here the 'racist' charge hurled at us. That's right--try to undermine a storyline which is making racist wars possible, and you might yourself get called a racist (Cockburn of Counterpunch has resorted to this ploy, and I believe Ward Churchill has as well). They promote a kind of perverse view where it is somehow considered non-racist, pro-Muslim, pro-Central Asian to attribute 9/11 to such people. They look at these CIA/ISI (and, yes, possibly Mossad as well) flunkies and perversely pretend to see in them some kind of revolutionary vanguard striking back against 'the Man'--the big, bad, bumbling imperialist power (which is, of course, too 'bumbling' to have carried out the attacks against itself...'Say what? Who's been benefitting from 9/11?.....Oh...well...ummm...we'll be putting a stop to that real soon!; As soon as we get people to stop wasting time with you truthers!').

Listen to some of these reactions, and it's as if they see 9/11 as something to be proud of, something that attests to the capability and resolve of whoever did it--and damned if they are going to shift their view from Third World peoples to western imperialists where this question is concerned!

Then there are those who might not go to this extreme but who, feeling guilty over US foreign policy, saw in 9/11 a kind of comeuppance for the US, and saw in the offical story of 9/11 a valuable lesson which could be used to educate the wider public about the truth of this foreign policy and where it could lead.

This, of course, is the classic 'blow-back' interpretation of 9/11. Many 9/11 truthers once held to this view. David Ray Griffin has more than once described how he once did, and how he gradually came around to understanding how false the 9/11 official story really was/is.

And yet, and yet...there remain so many others who remain utterly stuck, like ostriches with their heads in the ground; who seemingly have absorbed none of the information that has come out about 9/11 over the past several years, and who seem determined not ever to absorb any of it.

Infrastructure of "perception controls"...

Just to clarify my own views of why my beliefs are that the greatest force against 9/11Truth hitting the mainstream being "Zionism", let me say that its with a deliberate broad brush and equally deliberate lack of "specifics" that I use to paint this picture. Its obvious to me and my 60 plus years in the USofA that certain elements within our society have been generating and propagating negative stereotypes of the Arab-Muslim world...and to me it started with Walt Disney's cartoon-ish work way back when, and it continues with Hollywood's constant and deliberate association between terrorists and the Arab-Muslim world. This is not by accident...it is purposeful. And I argue that one of the main reasons for this is that Israel is fundamentaly surrounded by these Arab-Muslim "terrorists"...or so Zionists would have us all believe.

So, when I use the word Zionism I'm most accurately making note of the infrastructure of perception controls long in use by those who need to have Israel's conduct seen positively and understandibly, while seeing the Arab-Muslim world, most notably Palestine, as being the "evil doers". This is evident and self protective of Israel and Jewish people all around the world. Its actually quite an old story.

The "perception controls" are in movies, TV shows, magazines, lectures, books, news reports, newspaper articles, and on and on and on...its a multi-pronged and very comprehensive effort...again, well designed. So, when a story that might switch perceptions totally upside down such as the "Dancing Israelis" story, or other information connecting Israel-Mossad-American Jews to 9/11, have a chance of doing their truthful work, all elements of the Zionists "perception controls" click into high gear to shut it down.

And THIS is where corporate media and the alleged "independent media are affected by those few folks within those organizations that cleverly carry out the "scrubbing" of anti-Israel stories and the "expansion" of anti-Arab/Muslim stories.

This infrastructure is so well established that it goes on without notice...indeed the only time its noticed is when sories are NOT so "scrubbed" in the favor of Israel or "expanded" in disfavor of the Arab-Muslim world...again most notably-Palestine.

When somebody studies what happened to the peace movements coming out of the 60s, arguably the biggest and loudest movement...but by far the LEAST EFFECTIVE and most marginalized movement within the cluster of progressive start-up movements that were born back then, I will argue that its this same Zionism that cleverly, quietly and persistantly has infiltrated the peace organizations and made sure that the peace movements would NOT be effective at ending wars. This also ties back into a large portion of Israel's economy...making-improving-selling weapons and weapon systems...but moreso, there is one thing that Zionists HAD to make NOT HAPPEN...something that the peace movements HAD to be prevented from accomplishing....

...and that is to PREVENT the US based peace organizations from continuing its opposition to ALL WARS and OCCUPATIONS around the world during the time periods when the USofA was not conducting one of its public wars....

This is just another part of the Zionist "perception control" apparatus because the one most constant- warring-occupying activity that has long been a constant is the Israel-Palestine conflict. Its THIS conflict that needs constant "scrubbing OR expanding" by the Zionist "perception control" apparatus.

Consequently, if the story ever comes out to the average citizen of the USofA about the "Dancing Israelis", and other Israeli connections with the mass murders and attacks on 9/11, then the horse will be WAY out of the barn regarding the many truths regarding Israel's ultimate and powerful role in the conduct of the USofA. And that horse will never make it back into the barn...it would be a done deal!

THIS...is why Zionism is the largest blockage to 9/11 Truth coming out...it threatens Israel, and more importantly as one American Jewish fellow pointed out to me in Seattle a few months back, it will expose the exact levels of political-financial-military-foriegn policy "controls" that Israel, AIPAC, and American Jewish people have regarding governing and directing our country.

To Zionists this simply cannot be allowed to happen. And since the events of 9/11/2001 are the most historically and tragically memorable events in most people's minds, having these events of 9/11 being seen as anti-Israel, or pro/nuetral-Arab/Muslim would be an absolute catastrophy for Israel.

Once the truth about Israel's conduct and international political-military influences begins to flow, it will be very hard to stop until ALL the truth is hanging out there on the laundry line.

I suggest that the likes of Goodman, Chomsky and Zinn are well aware of this potential...

Seeking truth is very important...and directing sunshine exposing lies is part of this process.

The 9/11 Truth Movement is facing the veryt same forces that dismembered the peace movements and has managed to get the US government under its tow. THIS...is very powerful stuff.

9/11 TRUTH for World PEACE...and begin to practice CI...Civil Informationing...both are good ideas.

Robin Hordon
Kingston, WA

 

 

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gretavo's picture

and not a single Jon Gold blog post...

...currently on the "latest post" tracker over there. could he finally be keeping his promise to quit the movement?

Jpass's picture

He won't quit

If only it were that easy.

Jon Gold is disinformation. These guys stir up shit then disappear for a while. He'll be back when rational 911 Truthers need some bullying. When rational thinking people need a few reminders of how much Jon Gold has done for the movement and the Family Members...he'll be there.

The discussion of Zionism is relevant but not that important to 9/11 Truth. In a court of law it matters not whether the criminals behind 9/11/2001 attacks believe in a Jewish homeland. As ridiculous as the belief in a Jewish right to land is, it's not that relevant to the criminal investigation of the attacks on 9/11/2001.

It is yet another example of how people can be convinced that diabolical acts of violence and murder are justified and of how extremists can be easily manipulated.

But at the end of the day evidence of criminal activity is the only way forward. Operationally, Zionists were probably important pawns who were manipulated by the true perps just like extremist Muslims were.

FYI, I found it interesting that when I met Jon Gold at my first and only PA 911 Visibility meeting, one of the major discussions that day was that Israel was not going to be focused on by PA 911 Visibility because it was not good for the movement. This was at the very first get-to-gether of that group in Philly. I wasn't feeling it so I never returned but the conversation has stayed in my memory since that day.

gretavo's picture

it all remains to be seen...

but I disagree with this: "Operationally, Zionists were probably important pawns who were manipulated by the true perps just like extremist Muslims were."

First, I don't see that any extremist muslims were manipulated into involvement with 9/11 since I've never seen any credible evidence that extremist msulims had anything whatsoever to do with it.

Zionists, on the other hand, are all over the 9/11 lies and cover-up, from Larry Silverstein to Judge Alvin Hellerstein, and Zionists as pawns just doesn't jibe with my understanding of the history of Zionism. In fact, history would suggest that Dubya was the Zionists' pawn in the 9/11 charade, and that his strings were being pulled through the neocon mafia surrounding him. He was probably made an offer he couldn't refuse: a) play along and be portrayed as a tough, heroic war president and simultaneously play the role of scapegoat for every evil act committed by the perps or b) have your sordid past brought to light in the national media or worse (think JFK).

kate of the kiosk's picture

glad you think along those lines

...i'm surprised everyone here does not?!

Annoymouse's picture

zionism and extremist islam

"First, I don't see that any extremist muslims were manipulated into involvement with 9/11 since I've never seen any credible evidence that extremist msulims had anything whatsoever to do with it."

You're right Gretavo. What I should have typed was that if it were true that so-called 'Muslim Extremist' were involved with the attacks on 9/11, they would most likely have no control or knowledge of the plot they were involved in.

I believe the same goes for Zionists who were involved. Maybe Israelis celebrating in broad daylight on 9/11 were part of an extremist Jewish Mossad unit. These dupes feel that their belief in a right to a religious homeland in Israel (Zionists) is the only license they need to kill or justify the killing of others. To trot around the globe in secret helping with all the sickening and nefarious spy shit we know goes on.

I don't believe that the true perps who benefited from the 9/11/2001 attacks truely believe in some delusion about right to a homeland in the middle east that has been mandated by God.

Let's imagine that George W. Bush was involved in the attack. He's a 'born-again-Christian' apparently. If he were a prime suspect for the attacks on 9/11, would we say that "born again Christians are responsible for the attacks on 9/11/2001"? And considering that he was surrounded by others with allegedly similar beliefs, like John Ashcroft, we now have a possible plot orchestrated by evangelical Christians right?

I believe what we have is competing mafias with their spokesmen out pretending to believe. True believers will do things like support illegal wars with no justification or evidence, or sign up for secret Israeli assasination units and trot around the globe protecting the homeland.

The attacks on 9/11/2001 had an operational objective. I do not believe the operational objective had anything to do with the belief that Jews have a religious right to a specific piece of land in the Middle East. I don't believe that the objective of the 9/11 attacks was to protect Israel.

For two reasons:

1. the ends doesn't justify the means. If the operation were to fail then the backlash against Israel would crush any chance of long term legitimacy for the extremist country.

2. I don't see it happening. I don't see Israel benefiting from the attacks on 9/11/2001. If anything, I see more Americans questioning the US support for Israel and seeing it as an extremist country that's more of a liability then a friend.

I could be totally wrong. Maybe Zionism was a motivating factor and I've under estimated the organizing power of the truely delusional religious nutters around the world. Maybe these nutters would have calculated that the ends does justify the means for Israel. Even in the face of operational failure, it was worth it. And maybe the operation did fail ala WTC 7. And maybe this failure resulted in what I view as waning support for Israel by Americans.

Jpass's picture

right, no muslims

"First, I don't see that any extremist muslims were manipulated into involvement with 9/11 since I've never seen any credible evidence that extremist msulims had anything whatsoever to do with it."

You're right Gretavo. What I should have typed was that if it were true that so-called 'Muslim Extremist' were involved with the attacks on 9/11, they would most likely have no control or knowledge of the plot they were involved in.

I believe the same goes for Zionists who were involved. Maybe Israelis celebrating in broad daylight on 9/11 were part of an extremist Jewish Mossad unit. These dupes feel that their belief in a right to a religious homeland in Israel (Zionists) is the only license they need to kill or justify the killing of others. To trot around the globe in secret helping with all the sickening and nefarious spy shit we know goes on.

I don't believe that the true perps who benefited from the 9/11/2001 attacks truely believe in some delusion about right to a homeland in the middle east that has been mandated by God.

Let's imagine that George W. Bush was involved in the attack. He's a 'born-again-Christian' apparently. If he were a prime suspect for the attacks on 9/11, would we say that "born again Christians are responsible for the attacks on 9/11/2001"? And considering that he was surrounded by others with allegedly similar beliefs, like John Ashcroft, we now have a possible plot orchestrated by evangelical Christians right?

I believe what we have is competing mafias with their spokesmen out pretending to believe. True believers will do things like support illegal wars with no justification or evidence, or sign up for secret Israeli assasination units and trot around the globe protecting the homeland.

The attacks on 9/11/2001 had an operational objective. I do not believe the operational objective had anything to do with the belief that Jews have a religious right to a specific piece of land in the Middle East. I don't believe that the objective of the 9/11 attacks was to protect Israel.

For two reasons:

1. the ends doesn't justify the means. If the operation were to fail then the backlash against Israel would crush any chance of long term legitimacy for the extremist country.

2. I don't see it happening. I don't see Israel benefiting from the attacks on 9/11/2001. If anything, I see more Americans questioning the US support for Israel and seeing it as an extremist country that's more of a liability then a friend.

I could be totally wrong. Maybe Zionism was a motivating factor and I've under estimated the organizing power of the truely delusional religious nutters around the world. Maybe these nutters would have calculated that the ends does justify the means for Israel. Even in the face of operational failure, it was worth it. And maybe the operation did fail ala WTC 7. And maybe this failure resulted in what I view as waning support for Israel by Americans.

Keenan's picture

Really? You don't see Israel benefiting from 9/11?

"I don't believe that the true perps who benefited from the 9/11/2001 attacks truely believe in some delusion about right to a homeland in the middle east that has been mandated by God."

This I agree with you on. The top level perps are most likely psychopathic fascists and really could care less about any sort of religious mumbo jumbo regardless of whether or not they would claim to act in the name of a religious cause or not. If the top level perps are in fact Zionists, then they are more likely motivated by a fascistic ideology of racial superiority coupled with the desire to control a strategically important region of the world, rather than a sincere "belief in some delusion about right to a homeland", as you pointed out. Of course, that doesn't mean that other "religious" Zionists are not allied with the top level perps and/or have allowed themselves to be manipulated and used for the cause. Kind of like the way the Bush Administration duped the Christian Right (who Carl Rove privately refered to as "nuts") in a Machiavellian scheme to exploit their hopes and voting power. This is detailed in the book Tempting Faith by David Kuo. “National Christian leaders received hugs and smiles in person and then were dismissed behind their backs and described as ‘ridiculous,’ ‘out of control,’ and just plain ‘goofy,’” Kuo writes. Many promises were made by Bush that were never intended to be kept. In fact, I don't believe Bush is genuinely a "born again Christian", but rather, goes through the motions in order to convince people he is.

I think this is much the same situation with Zionism, in which the "real" Zionists who are actually religious or are "true believers" in the Jewish homeland and god's purpose, yada, yada, yada, are being used and manipulated by those who are Nazi fascist power mongers who can give a rat's ass about the Jewish people, let alone their own mothers. But this does not mean than there weren't "true believers" supporting or participating in the 9/11 operation.

"I don't believe that the objective of the 9/11 attacks was to protect Israel.

For two reasons:

1. the ends doesn't justify the means. If the operation were to fail then the backlash against Israel would crush any chance of long term legitimacy for the extremist country."

I find this a pretty weak argument. Israel has been carrying out many false flag operations and getting away with it for a long time. Why would they worry about not getting away with it this time?

"2. I don't see it happening. I don't see Israel benefiting from the attacks on 9/11/2001."

No? How about these for starters:

1) The immediate justification for a stepped up repression against Palestinians, which Israel quickly took advantage of by increasing their violence in Gaza right after 9/11. The whole arab terrorism meme, which benefits Israel above all other powers, just received a massive boost and caused the whole Western world to hate the Arabs/Muslims 10 times as much as before.

2) The policy of regime change, which Israel was wanting to carry out for years, as they stated in documents prior to 9/11, finally got the green light, and the US military force to do it for them.

3) Sympathy for Israel increased massively, with one Israeli leader saying right after the 9/11 attacks, "now the Americans will know what it is like for Israelis. This is very good for Israel."

"If anything, I see more Americans questioning the US support for Israel and seeing it as an extremist country that's more of a liability then a friend."

Huh? Only a small minority of Americans are anti-Israeli, and this was happening long before 9/11, particularly within the Progressive anti-imperialist demographic, certainly not because of 9/11. Very few Americans have become more anti-Israeli because of 9/11.

gretavo's picture

i think they realize gold's credibility capital is spent

so they've turned things over to "Loose Nuke" aka "rancho truth" (at truefaction), aka Erik Larsen and a few others there. Now it looks like the role of blatant disinfo is being played by demolition deniers (with JMartelxiv aka Justin Martel of student scholars for truth subbing for Gold) while the subtle disinfo earns credibility capital by attacking him and a few others, which they will then spend on things like supporting the bogus 9/11 health bill (see http://www.wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/2479 ) and whatever else the cover-up crew decides needs to have the appearance of broad support in the truth movement...

juandelacruz's picture

Hi G, I think this post

Hi G, I think this post deserves a more prominent presence or its own thread to warn people of the new game at 911b.

juandelacruz's picture

Hi Jpass

When you ask yourself who benefits from 9-11? Don't the Zionists pop to no 1 on the list?

Just to let everyone level out, who do you think are the top level perps that control all the pawns?

Personally I think it is linked to the Rothschild clan or an organization that evolved from their group.

The Neocons, dual nationals such as Chertof, and the Mossad who were caught after filming wtc may be Zionist pawns as you say, but I think they serve Zionist masters as well.

There is one thing in common between the Bush and Obama administration that I blame for the lack of a new investigation of 9-11, and I put it down to control by Zionists. This is why Rahm Emmanuel's appointment as COS drew such flack in this website, it was a dead giveaway that Obama was under their fingers yet again.

Annoymouse's picture

"who benefits from 9-11?"

Weren't US troops withdrawn from Saudi Arabia after 911? and hadn't their presence in The Holy Land enraged Islamic radicals since 1991? That seems like a clear benefit right there.

911 was an unmitigated public relations disaster for Israel. While one can reasonably speculate that simple arrogance might lead Israeli leaders to do something foolhardy and counterproductive, there is no credible case to say that Israel actually benefited from this. Before 911 it would have been unthinkable for a paper like Mearsheimer & Walt to gain broad publicity. Nowadays they can write books on the subject which huge numbers of people rush to buy. All of that is a consequence of 911.

Annoymouse's picture

Iraq war was Israeli PR disaster, not 9/11

911 itself was no public relations disaster for Israel. What was was the exposure of the Israel Lobby as the main force behind the Iraq war. The broad acceptance of M&W's paper was a direct consequence of said exposure plus the failure of the Iraq expedition and the high financial costs that came with it. The war that was based on lies. THAT was the PR disaster for Israel, not 911. 911 was the reason that one of the greatest perceived threats to Israeli hegemony in the region was decapitated. That was one of the main aims of 911: the implementation of the Clean Break strategy, i.e. removing Saddam from power. That was a success. (The other aim was PNAC, enhance American hegemony in the world).

Annoymouse's picture

"Iraq war was Israeli PR disaster, not 9/11"

Which only undercuts any arguments to the effect that the subsequent invasion of Iraq represented a net gain for Israel, as the other poster tried to claim. No, there's no question that 911 and the Iraq war together have been an unmitigated PR disaster for Israel. Rambling on about the elimination of Iraq as a rival doesn't mean very much when the US public is visibly more sick of Israel today than they ever had been previously. To be able to carry on with building colonial settlements they need to maintain some semblance of support amnong the US public. The only question one could try to pose is whether Likud arrogance might have gotten sufficiently carried away as to do something which clearly has been in the long run counter-productive. That happens. Not everything in politics follows a "cui bono" pattern. Sometimes politicos simply overestimate their reach and go too far. One could try hypothesizing that in this case.

But it is still true that the withdrawal of US troops from the Saudi peninsula was regarded as a victory by every Islamic radical. Even if you don't think of it as much of a gain, they certainly did. Infidel troops in the Holy Land had enraged them ever since 1990. Troop movements after 2003 which cleared the Holy Land were certainly a victory for Islamic radicals. That doesn't prove they were behind anything, but they clearly did benefit.

juandelacruz's picture

Are you serious?

Iraq which used to be a rival of Israel in the region has all but been destroyed. Pakistan which is the only predominantly Islamic country with nuclear weapons is under US pressure. If it wasn't for the opposition to the US military misadventure in Iraq, Iran would probably have been attacked by the previous US administration, perhaps using the same bogus links to 9-11 as was used against Iraq.

9-11 has done more to eliminate Israel's rivals in the region than any other event I can imagine.

Try again.

gretavo's picture

right

and to understand Israel's true regional ambitions one need look no further than Israel Shahak's book Open Secrets:

Product Description

Israel's foreign policy is perceived to be essentially a defensive one by the international community. Why then is it the only nuclear power which refuses to sign the Non-Poliferation Treaty? What are its true foreign and nuclear policies? Using the Hebrew press as his main source, veteran human rights campaigner Israel Shahak reveals Israel's strategic foreign policy as presented through its own domestic media: ie what other Israeli Jews are told. He argues that the Israeli government, with the support of the US Jewish lobby, are conducting a global policy aiming to control virtually the whole of the Middle East for their own purposes.

http://www.amazon.com/Open-Secrets-Israeli-Foreign-Policies/dp/074531151...

Annoymouse's picture

> Israel's foreign policy is

> Israel's foreign policy is perceived to be essentially a defensive one

You'll note that that book was written more than a decade ago. Events since 911 have significantly altered how the US public perceives Israel. There's no question that on the balance of things 911 has meant a significant net loss for Israel. The only issue open would be whether or not Likudniks might have been arrogant enough to do something which was damaging to their overall interests. That actually does happen in politics that is sometimes admitted. Not everything is "cui bono," some things in politics are more "cui bonehead?" But much of the framework which Shahak summarizes there has been shattered by the last 8 years.

gretavo's picture

huh?

"911 has meant a significant net loss for Israel."

wow, this is war is peace, 2+2=5 stuff!

don't tell me--you also think Obama is really tough on Israel and that withdrawing from Gaza was *not* done so as to be able to launch the subsequent offensive.

also, I guess LBJ ordered the Israelis to attack the USS Liberty and Dimona is only used for peaceful energy purposes, J Street intends to put AIPAC out of business and Bill Maher is honestly mistaken about WTC7.

Gosh I could go on and on!

Annoymouse's picture

> don't tell me--you also

> don't tell me--you also think Obama is really tough on Israel

That's always a relative phrase in the eye of the beholder, but the Obama administration has been more publicly overt on challenging Israel than the JFK administration ever was.

gretavo's picture

uh huh.

Obama to tell Rabin memorial: U.S.-Israel alliance is unbreakable

By Barak Ravid, Haaretz Correspondent

Tags: Israel News, Palestinians

The alliance between Israel and the United States is unbreakable, U.S. President Barack Obama will tell Israelis at a memorial ceremony for former prime minister Yitzhak Rabin on Saturday night.

Obama will make the comments in a videotaped message in which he also will pledge that U.S. support for Israel's defense will never be undermined.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1124571.html

Annoymouse's picture

> Obama to tell Rabin

> Obama to tell Rabin memorial: U.S.-Israel alliance is unbreakable

JFK laid it on much thicker than that during his Presidency. Everything which we know today about conflicts between his administration and Israel over Dimona comes from research done since the '90s by Andrew & Leslie Cockburn, Seymour Hersh and some others. There was no public indication at the time of any stresses between the JFK administration and Tel Aviv.

gretavo's picture

source please

"JFK laid it on much thicker than that during his Presidency. "

Did he lay it on *this* thick?


how about as thick as this?

Actually, this has to be my favorite, and the most eligible for very naughty photoshopping:

Annoymouse's picture

He certainly never did

He certainly never did anything like this in public:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=114517

Hillary to demand halt to Jewish construction
Set to deliver stern message from White House during weekend visit

Posted: October 30, 2009
10:41 am Eastern

By Aaron Klein
© 2009 WorldNetDaily

JERUSALEM – Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton is planning to press Israel over the weekend to cease Jewish construction in the eastern sections of Jerusalem, informed senior diplomatic officials told WND.

Clinton is scheduled to arrive in Jerusalem Sunday in her first official trip to Israel since Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu took office in March.

According to the informed diplomatic officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, the Obama administration has been disappointed by a lack of progress on Israeli-Palestinian issues brokered by George Mitchell, the White House's envoy to the Mideast.

Clinton is being sent by the White House on a brief visit to Jerusalem to lend her stature to Mideast talks and to deliver a message from the Obama administration that will involve pressing Israel to halt construction in eastern Jerusalem and the strategic West Bank, the diplomatic officials told WND. The officials said Clinton's message emanates from the White House and not specifically from the State Department.
-----

All of JFK's conflicts with Israel were quiet behind-the-scenes events which did not emerge into public until the 1990s. The conflicts between the Obama White House and Israel today have emerged much more rapidly and openly.

gretavo's picture

I wonder how many "security training" contracts

have been farmed out to Israel since 9/11?

and I'm certainly not suggesting that the entire Knesset met and voted to participate in a false flag operation against the U.S. but whoever *did* make that decision surely counted on not being ratted out once the deed was done, for obvious reasons. and this could be turned around to say that whoever in the U.S. decided to participate could be just as sure that their "favor" to so many would, if not be welcomed, at least not exposed as a fraud.

Jpass's picture

hmm...i have no idea

IMO, the lack of investigation and lack of facts have created a vacuum that makes it extremely hard to know who was truely behind the attacks on 9/11/2001.

When I read about things like the Israelis celebrating on 9/11/2001 and getting arrested, I see a set-up more then I see a group of agents who just succeeded. It seems these guys wanted to get arrested because it was somehow part of the operation itself. If you were a spy who just helped destroy the WTC complex with explosives, would you drive a big white van across the river, get on top of it and start high-fiving and shit? It makes no sense unless they were trying to get arrested as some sort of diversion. Also, do you think that someone like Larry Silverstien would knowingly purchase the lease on buildings he is hoping to destroy in a few months? Seems a little risky to me. Seems really convenient actually.

Maybe Zionists and Muslims were set-up.

gretavo's picture

a discussion worth having, for sure.

I am open to arguments (if they are sound) that there was an element of "framing Zionists" for 9/11, just as I am to those of "framing Bush" for 9/11. In the end I think that the physical evidence will help us get to the bottom of things.

But let me be clear that I think that is going to be a tough thing to prove. Have people read A Clean Break recently? It is just as important as the pNAC Rebuilding America's Defenses for the insight it gives into the neocon/Likudnik mindset. And remember that Gilad Atzmon described neoconservatism as "globalized Zionism", which I think is very true.

Finally, remember that Zionism is not per se all about Jews--it certainly uses Jews as pawns by trying to convince them they are all a unit that must "hang together or hang separately". Whoever perpetrated and covered up 9/11, i.e. whatever interests or factions have made that all possible, are clearly some of the most powerful on earth and we cannot presume to know exactly who or what they are at this point...

Anyway, here's some ACB for y'all:

 

A Clean Break:
A New Strategy for Securing the Realm


 

Following is a report prepared by The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies’ "Study Group on a New Israeli Strategy Toward 2000." The main substantive ideas in this paper emerge from a discussion in which prominent opinion makers, including Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser participated. The report, entitled "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," is the framework for a series of follow-up reports on strategy.

Israel has a large problem. Labor Zionism, which for 70 years has dominated the Zionist movement, has generated a stalled and shackled economy. Efforts to salvage Israel’s socialist institutions—which include pursuing supranational over national sovereignty and pursuing a peace process that embraces the slogan, "New Middle East"—undermine the legitimacy of the nation and lead Israel into strategic paralysis and the previous government’s "peace process." That peace process obscured the evidence of eroding national critical mass— including a palpable sense of national exhaustion—and forfeited strategic initiative. The loss of national critical mass was illustrated best by Israel’s efforts to draw in the United States to sell unpopular policies domestically, to agree to negotiate sovereignty over its capital, and to respond with resignation to a spate of terror so intense and tragic that it deterred Israelis from engaging in normal daily functions, such as commuting to work in buses.

Benjamin Netanyahu’s government comes in with a new set of ideas. While there are those who will counsel continuity, Israel has the opportunity to make a clean break; it can forge a peace process and strategy based on an entirely new intellectual foundation, one that restores strategic initiative and provides the nation the room to engage every possible energy on rebuilding Zionism, the starting point of which must be economic reform. To secure the nation’s streets and borders in the immediate future, Israel can:

  • Work closely with Turkey and Jordan to contain, destabilize, and roll-back some of its most dangerous threats. This implies clean break from the slogan, "comprehensive peace" to a traditional concept of strategy based on balance of power.

     

  • Change the nature of its relations with the Palestinians, including upholding the right of hot pursuit for self defense into all Palestinian areas and nurturing alternatives to Arafat’s exclusive grip on Palestinian society.

     

  • Forge a new basis for relations with the United States—stressing self-reliance, maturity, strategic cooperation on areas of mutual concern, and furthering values inherent to the West. This can only be done if Israel takes serious steps to terminate aid, which prevents economic reform.

This report is written with key passages of a possible speech marked TEXT, that highlight the clean break which the new government has an opportunity to make. The body of the report is the commentary explaining the purpose and laying out the strategic context of the passages.

A New Approach to Peace

Early adoption of a bold, new perspective on peace and security is imperative for the new prime minister. While the previous government, and many abroad, may emphasize "land for peace"— which placed Israel in the position of cultural, economic, political, diplomatic, and military retreat — the new government can promote Western values and traditions. Such an approach, which will be well received in the United States, includes "peace for peace," "peace through strength" and self reliance: the balance of power.

A new strategy to seize the initiative can be introduced:

TEXT:

    We have for four years pursued peace based on a New Middle East. We in Israel cannot play innocents abroad in a world that is not innocent. Peace depends on the character and behavior of our foes. We live in a dangerous neighborhood, with fragile states and bitter rivalries. Displaying moral ambivalence between the effort to build a Jewish state and the desire to annihilate it by trading "land for peace" will not secure "peace now." Our claim to the land —to which we have clung for hope for 2000 years--is legitimate and noble. It is not within our own power, no matter how much we concede, to make peace unilaterally. Only the unconditional acceptance by Arabs of our rights, especially in their territorial dimension, "peace for peace," is a solid basis for the future.

Israel’s quest for peace emerges from, and does not replace, the pursuit of its ideals. The Jewish people’s hunger for human rights — burned into their identity by a 2000-year old dream to live free in their own land — informs the concept of peace and reflects continuity of values with Western and Jewish tradition. Israel can now embrace negotiations, but as means, not ends, to pursue those ideals and demonstrate national steadfastness. It can challenge police states; enforce compliance of agreements; and insist on minimal standards of accountability.

Securing the Northern Border

Syria challenges Israel on Lebanese soil. An effective approach, and one with which American can sympathize, would be if Israel seized the strategic initiative along its northern borders by engaging Hizballah, Syria, and Iran, as the principal agents of aggression in Lebanon, including by:

  • striking Syria’s drug-money and counterfeiting infrastructure in Lebanon, all of which focuses on Razi Qanan.

     

  • paralleling Syria’s behavior by establishing the precedent that Syrian territory is not immune to attacks emanating from Lebanon by Israeli proxy forces.

     

  • striking Syrian military targets in Lebanon, and should that prove insufficient, striking at select targets in Syria proper.

Israel also can take this opportunity to remind the world of the nature of the Syrian regime. Syria repeatedly breaks its word. It violated numerous agreements with the Turks, and has betrayed the United States by continuing to occupy Lebanon in violation of the Taef agreement in 1989. Instead, Syria staged a sham election, installed a quisling regime, and forced Lebanon to sign a "Brotherhood Agreement" in 1991, that terminated Lebanese sovereignty. And Syria has begun colonizing Lebanon with hundreds of thousands of Syrians, while killing tens of thousands of its own citizens at a time, as it did in only three days in 1983 in Hama.

Under Syrian tutelage, the Lebanese drug trade, for which local Syrian military officers receive protection payments, flourishes. Syria’s regime supports the terrorist groups operationally and financially in Lebanon and on its soil. Indeed, the Syrian-controlled Bekaa Valley in Lebanon has become for terror what the Silicon Valley has become for computers. The Bekaa Valley has become one of the main distribution sources, if not production points, of the "supernote" — counterfeit US currency so well done that it is impossible to detect.

Text:

    Negotiations with repressive regimes like Syria’s require cautious realism. One cannot sensibly assume the other side’s good faith. It is dangerous for Israel to deal naively with a regime murderous of its own people, openly aggressive toward its neighbors, criminally involved with international drug traffickers and counterfeiters, and supportive of the most deadly terrorist organizations.

Given the nature of the regime in Damascus, it is both natural and moral that Israel abandon the slogan "comprehensive peace" and move to contain Syria, drawing attention to its weapons of mass destruction program, and rejecting "land for peace" deals on the Golan Heights.

Moving to a Traditional Balance of Power Strategy

TEXT:

    We must distinguish soberly and clearly friend from foe. We must make sure that our friends across the Middle East never doubt the solidity or value of our friendship.

Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq — an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right — as a means of foiling Syria’s regional ambitions. Jordan has challenged Syria's regional ambitions recently by suggesting the restoration of the Hashemites in Iraq. This has triggered a Jordanian-Syrian rivalry to which Asad has responded by stepping up efforts to destabilize the Hashemite Kingdom, including using infiltrations. Syria recently signaled that it and Iran might prefer a weak, but barely surviving Saddam, if only to undermine and humiliate Jordan in its efforts to remove Saddam.

But Syria enters this conflict with potential weaknesses: Damascus is too preoccupied with dealing with the threatened new regional equation to permit distractions of the Lebanese flank. And Damascus fears that the 'natural axis' with Israel on one side, central Iraq and Turkey on the other, and Jordan, in the center would squeeze and detach Syria from the Saudi Peninsula. For Syria, this could be the prelude to a redrawing of the map of the Middle East which would threaten Syria's territorial integrity.

Since Iraq's future could affect the strategic balance in the Middle East profoundly, it would be understandable that Israel has an interest in supporting the Hashemites in their efforts to redefine Iraq, including such measures as: visiting Jordan as the first official state visit, even before a visit to the United States, of the new Netanyahu government; supporting King Hussein by providing him with some tangible security measures to protect his regime against Syrian subversion; encouraging — through influence in the U.S. business community — investment in Jordan to structurally shift Jordan’s economy away from dependence on Iraq; and diverting Syria’s attention by using Lebanese opposition elements to destabilize Syrian control of Lebanon.

Most important, it is understandable that Israel has an interest supporting diplomatically, militarily and operationally Turkey’s and Jordan’s actions against Syria, such as securing tribal alliances with Arab tribes that cross into Syrian territory and are hostile to the Syrian ruling elite.

King Hussein may have ideas for Israel in bringing its Lebanon problem under control. The predominantly Shia population of southern Lebanon has been tied for centuries to the Shia leadership in Najf, Iraq rather than Iran. Were the Hashemites to control Iraq, they could use their influence over Najf to help Israel wean the south Lebanese Shia away from Hizballah, Iran, and Syria. Shia retain strong ties to the Hashemites: the Shia venerate foremost the Prophet’s family, the direct descendants of which — and in whose veins the blood of the Prophet flows — is King Hussein.

Changing the Nature of Relations with the Palestinians

Israel has a chance to forge a new relationship between itself and the Palestinians. First and foremost, Israel’s efforts to secure its streets may require hot pursuit into Palestinian-controlled areas, a justifiable practice with which Americans can sympathize.

A key element of peace is compliance with agreements already signed. Therefore, Israel has the right to insist on compliance, including closing Orient House and disbanding Jibril Rujoub’s operatives in Jerusalem. Moreover, Israel and the United States can establish a Joint Compliance Monitoring Committee to study periodically whether the PLO meets minimum standards of compliance, authority and responsibility, human rights, and judicial and fiduciary accountability.

TEXT:

    We believe that the Palestinian Authority must be held to the same minimal standards of accountability as other recipients of U.S. foreign aid. A firm peace cannot tolerate repression and injustice. A regime that cannot fulfill the most rudimentary obligations to its own people cannot be counted upon to fulfill its obligations to its neighbors.

Israel has no obligations under the Oslo agreements if the PLO does not fulfill its obligations. If the PLO cannot comply with these minimal standards, then it can be neither a hope for the future nor a proper interlocutor for present. To prepare for this, Israel may want to cultivate alternatives to Arafat’s base of power. Jordan has ideas on this.

To emphasize the point that Israel regards the actions of the PLO problematic, but not the Arab people, Israel might want to consider making a special effort to reward friends and advance human rights among Arabs. Many Arabs are willing to work with Israel; identifying and helping them are important. Israel may also find that many of her neighbors, such as Jordan, have problems with Arafat and may want to cooperate. Israel may also want to better integrate its own Arabs.

Forging A New U.S.-Israeli Relationship

In recent years, Israel invited active U.S. intervention in Israel’s domestic and foreign policy for two reasons: to overcome domestic opposition to "land for peace" concessions the Israeli public could not digest, and to lure Arabs — through money, forgiveness of past sins, and access to U.S. weapons — to negotiate. This strategy, which required funneling American money to repressive and aggressive regimes, was risky, expensive, and very costly for both the U.S. and Israel, and placed the United States in roles is should neither have nor want.

Israel can make a clean break from the past and establish a new vision for the U.S.-Israeli partnership based on self-reliance, maturity and mutuality — not one focused narrowly on territorial disputes. Israel’s new strategy — based on a shared philosophy of peace through strength — reflects continuity with Western values by stressing that Israel is self-reliant, does not need U.S. troops in any capacity to defend it, including on the Golan Heights, and can manage its own affairs. Such self-reliance will grant Israel greater freedom of action and remove a significant lever of pressure used against it in the past.

To reinforce this point, the Prime Minister can use his forthcoming visit to announce that Israel is now mature enough to cut itself free immediately from at least U.S. economic aid and loan guarantees at least, which prevent economic reform. [Military aid is separated for the moment until adequate arrangements can be made to ensure that Israel will not encounter supply problems in the means to defend itself]. As outlined in another Institute report, Israel can become self-reliant only by, in a bold stroke rather than in increments, liberalizing its economy, cutting taxes, relegislating a free-processing zone, and selling-off public lands and enterprises — moves which will electrify and find support from a broad bipartisan spectrum of key pro-Israeli Congressional leaders, including Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich.

Israel can under these conditions better cooperate with the U.S. to counter real threats to the region and the West’s security. Mr. Netanyahu can highlight his desire to cooperate more closely with the United States on anti-missile defense in order to remove the threat of blackmail which even a weak and distant army can pose to either state. Not only would such cooperation on missile defense counter a tangible physical threat to Israel’s survival, but it would broaden Israel’s base of support among many in the United States Congress who may know little about Israel, but care very much about missile defense. Such broad support could be helpful in the effort to move the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.

To anticipate U.S. reactions and plan ways to manage and constrain those reactions, Prime Minister Netanyahu can formulate the policies and stress themes he favors in language familiar to the Americans by tapping into themes of American administrations during the Cold War which apply well to Israel. If Israel wants to test certain propositions that require a benign American reaction, then the best time to do so is before November, 1996.

Conclusions: Transcending the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    TEXT: Israel will not only contain its foes; it will transcend them.

Notable Arab intellectuals have written extensively on their perception of Israel’s floundering and loss of national identity. This perception has invited attack, blocked Israel from achieving true peace, and offered hope for those who would destroy Israel. The previous strategy, therefore, was leading the Middle East toward another Arab-Israeli war. Israel’s new agenda can signal a clean break by abandoning a policy which assumed exhaustion and allowed strategic retreat by reestablishing the principle of preemption, rather than retaliation alone and by ceasing to absorb blows to the nation without response.

Israel’s new strategic agenda can shape the regional environment in ways that grant Israel the room to refocus its energies back to where they are most needed: to rejuvenate its national idea, which can only come through replacing Israel’s socialist foundations with a more sound footing; and to overcome its "exhaustion," which threatens the survival of the nation.

Ultimately, Israel can do more than simply manage the Arab-Israeli conflict though war. No amount of weapons or victories will grant Israel the peace its seeks. When Israel is on a sound economic footing, and is free, powerful, and healthy internally, it will no longer simply manage the Arab-Israeli conflict; it will transcend it. As a senior Iraqi opposition leader said recently: "Israel must rejuvenate and revitalize its moral and intellectual leadership. It is an important — if not the most important--element in the history of the Middle East." Israel — proud, wealthy, solid, and strong — would be the basis of a truly new and peaceful Middle East.

Participants in the Study Group on "A New Israeli Strategy Toward 2000:"

Richard Perle, American Enterprise Institute, Study Group Leader

James Colbert, Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs
Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Johns Hopkins University/SAIS
Douglas Feith, Feith and Zell Associates
Robert Loewenberg, President, Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies
Jonathan Torop, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
David Wurmser, Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies
Meyrav Wurmser, Johns Hopkins University

kate of the kiosk's picture

if they really wanted to get arrested

then why not set up on the streets of lower Manhattan somewhere with their van and garb, and lighters, and explosives, and cash, and cameras, and hi-5s? nah, they wanted to get far enough away but not too far (in order "to document the event"), in a park with a view, privately, where nobody really lives, hang out, enjoy the show, thus their cockey and self-congratulatory celebration. that's what i think. thanks for the aerials.

Annoymouse's picture

Dancing Israelis were perps not pawns

"But at the end of the day evidence of criminal activity is the only way forward. Operationally, Zionists were probably important pawns who were manipulated by the true perps just like extremist Muslims were."

That is ridiculous. That the 'dancing Israelis' got the attention of every 9/11-truther was pure coincidental. Had not this old lady Maria picked up the phone to call the cops nobody would have ever known about these dancers, neither would they have been arrested.

These Israelis had foreknowledge most likely because they had actively participated in the preparations of the placing explosives in WTC.

WTC7 is the smoking gun regarding controlled demolition. The dancing Israelis are the smoking guns towards the real perps.

gretavo's picture

i tend to agree, anonymous one

I'm sure the last thing on the dancing Israelis' minds was that someone was going to call the cops on them, or that the cops would actually bother coming after them. I do think we should remain circumspect as to these particular individuals' role viz 9/11. Their actions were suspicious but not illegal (speaking only of the cheering and filming) what is more important is that they were working in the country illegaly for a Mossad front company and that two of them were IDed by the FBI as actual agents. Any guesses as to their role is just that at this point. Do the circumstances (the fact that they worked for a moving company) give us cause for suspicion? Absolutely. A moving company is an ideal cover for someone trying to smuggle something into a building. Was Urban Moving Systems hired by anyone at the WTC prior to 9/11? A real investigation would surely have sought to answer that question but apparently it was never asked. That is another reason to suspect them. And you are absolutely right that if "Maria" had not spotted and reported them we would not even be having this discussion--imagine that!

juandelacruz's picture

I agree they are perps, but...

In a large scale operation such as 9-11, I think it is possible that the dancing Israelis were not necessarily the same operators who placed the demo charges in WTC. I think specialists would have rigged the demo charges (they could have been those same specialists, except no clear evidence say so yet beyond their van being positive for explosives to bomb sniffing dogs*). The particular Israelis in the moving vans do not necessarily need to know or would have known that the WTC would be destroyed, but their superiors, which I assume are in the Mossad heirarchy, who ordered them to film WTC at that particular time surely did. Somewhere up the chain of command (perhaps not the official chain of command) their superiors knew who the demo people were and exercised operational control over them.

*I remember this detail loosely and may be mistaken

The particular role of the dancing Israelis on that day could have been, as they themselves said, to document the event. But that is a damning thing to say if interpreted to mean their superiors knew that the WTC would be destroyed. Knowing so, they are the only ones that are now directly linked to and most likely were the perps that orchestrated the demolition of the WTC towers.

I think the dancing Israelis were tasked to have the blame pointed at Arabs as well, hence the open celebration while dressed in Arabic garb.

Annoymouse's picture

> the Mossad heirarchy, who

> the Mossad heirarchy, who ordered them to film WTC at that particular time

Does any real evidence exist to imply that they were ever ordered by anyone to film anything? Lots of people began breaking out the cameras on the day of 911. One doesn't have to be ordered by anyone to do this. The only thing noteworthy about this group of Israelis was that they acted like stupid effers. But that doesn't mean that anyone ordered them to do any filming.

gretavo's picture

um, are people forgetting?

Two of the guys were found to be intelligence agents and all of them were working for a Mossad front company. This is according to the FBI and was also published in the Forward (a Jewish weekly magazine). We surely can't say with any certainty what they were doing prior to 9/11, but if anyone here is arguing that they were most likely innocent moving men who just happened to have a bad sense of humor, let me ask--are you shitting me?!

Annoymouse's picture

> Two of the guys were found

> Two of the guys were found to be intelligence agents

That still does not in any way imply that they were ever ordered to do any filming. They could very well have been engaged in intelligence activities of some unknown character, seen the planes crash like everyone else, and then rushed to start filming the disaster without ever having been given any orders about filming anything. To assert that they had actually been ordered by someone above them to take films of the catastrophe requires much more evidence than anything which has yet been produced.

gretavo's picture

which brings us back to my statement at the beginning

of this thread:

With just one problem--the dancing Israelis never said "their bosses sent them to document the attack as it happened". They said that they were filming the attacks once they realized they were underway so as to document it, much as anyone else who pointed a camera at the towers once they were struck did. The difference of course is that the Dancing Israelis were a) happily doing it and b) according to the FBI working for a Mossad front company. It is such a damning story when told truthfully that we should not make mistakes in telling it, imo.

juandelacruz's picture

What can we infer from the

What can we infer from the Mossad agents filming happily while people are dying by the thousands at WTC?

My opinions below (do correct them if wrong and add what you may):

1. I think they had pre knowledge of when and where the attacks would take place, thus they were in a vantage point to film it. If they were tourists roaming NYC with video cams, I would presume they were innocent, but as mentioned by Gret, two were confirmed Mossad agents working out of a Mossad front company, so I assume they are operating as a Mossad team and due to point #2 and #3 below I further make the case that they had pre knowledge of the attacks.

2. Seeing the destruction of the WTC and perhaps, knowing that it was being done by their colleagues they were cheering the success of the operation (which is why I count them among the perps). Most people who see other people being killed would probably not be celebrating the event.

3. There is also the accusation that they had Arab clothes on and perhaps were trying to implicate Arabs for the attacks. Remember how news agencies trotted out footage of Palestinians cheering the attacks (though found out later to be faked or staged footage). They did blame the Palestinians when they were later caught by the police. Do Mossad operatives in the US have an emergency Arab clothes kit with them all the time just in case a terrorist attack takes place which they could then blame on Arabs? No, more likely, they knew the attack would take place and brought the Arab clothes exactly for the purpose of being seen in them and having the blame put on their foes (Palestinians). I think they wanted to be seen (as Arabs celebrating the attacks) so acting sloppily and in public was not out of character for their operation, but they probably did not plan on being caught, which destroys their false flag meme blaming the Palestinians. They could have misjudged the effectiveness of the police in catching them.

4. If the dancing Mossad team had pre-knowledge of the attacks time and place, then I would infer that their chain of command going up knew of the attacks as well. Knowing that the main target is the property of Larry Silverstein, a very prominent man in Israel and a friend of former and current PM Binyamin Netanyahu, I would presume they would have warned him of the attacks if they knew this in advance. That is unless they were part of the attack in the first place. Since the towers were not evacuated prior to the attacks, I can only conclude that the Mossad chain of command leading up from the dancing Mossad team was involved in the plot.

5. The normal chain of command of the Mossad would of course end up all the way to the Israeli Prime Minister. It is possible for intel services I suppose to act on their own at times (as rogue organizations), but in this case, hitting at an ally and killing thousands, I would think that this operation was executed with the blessings of the top man, and as other evidence points to, with the explicit cooperation of their American allies.

casseia's picture

I don't have a link handy

... probably that article somewhere at whatreallyhappened would work but I think you're conflating the Dancing Israelis (who were "documenting the event") with the Israelis driving the van with explosives residue.

My hunch about the dancing Israelis making a spectacle of themselves is that, to paraphrase a friend, "for young guys, sometimes it's just Miller Time."

Annoymouse's picture

> There is also the

> There is also the accusation that they had Arab clothes on

That sounds like a mutated version. The woman called claimed that they were "Mideasterners" speaking "Arabic." That can be easily accounted for simply by her not knowing Hebrew. There was nothing said to imply anything distinctive about Arab-looking clothing. Most US citizens, if asked to compare Hebrew-speaking Israelis to a typical New York City Jew on the one hand and to a Saudi Arab on the other hand, would tend to associate the Hebrew-speaking Israelis more easily with the Saudi Arab than with the New York City Jew. The reports of the incident do not imply anything so elaborate as Israelis dressing up to like Arabs.

Jpass's picture

Not so coincidental. Not so ridiculous.

This was meant to be a reply to Anonymous not Juan.

Click Images For Large Version




The image shows Liberty Park, NJ looking towards the WTC complex.
Maria was looking through binoculars on 9/11/2001 watching the towers burn when she noticed a white van with 3 guys celebrating.
How many binoculars do you suppose were pointed in that direction?




100s or even 1,000s of witnesses are directly behind these guys. All would have been fixated on the towers.

Is it ridiculous to consider these guys wanted to get noticed? Come on.

And let's say this was part of the operation and let's assume that not a single person called 911 to report these bumbling spies. Do you really think the story would be 'lost'? I don't because I believe this story is NOT a coincidence. If Maria and the other couple thousands of witnesses who were fixated on the exact spot these guys were located failed to call, maybe an anonymous call would have been made. In fact, there was a suspicious anonymous call that did report the white van with strange men in Arab garb.

juandelacruz's picture

Do consider that they wanted

Do consider that they wanted to be seen as Arabs, not as Israeli. So being seen in public could have been their mission. Being caught was probably not part of their plan, and I put this down to misjudging how quickly they can be arrested by the police given the simultaneous chaos occurring at WTC. They didn't actually do anything illegal in public which they could have again mistaken to think that no one would call the police on them.

Look at it this way, if they were not arrested by the police, the story going out the news would have been "Arabic guys witnessed celebrating and filming the destruction of the WTC". I think that is what they had wanted to accomplish but failed to do so only by being caught by cops.

Jpass's picture

"That is ridiculous. That

"That is ridiculous. That the 'dancing Israelis' got the attention of every 9/11-truther was pure coincidental."

I disagree.

The idea that Israeli spooks would conspire to demolish the WTC Complex and then drive down the street to watch the buildings burn while standing on-top of a van cheering, holding up lighters etc. etc....is ridiculous to me. It makes no sense at all unless they were trying to be noticed.
And I'm not surprised that 'Maria' and other anonymous witnesses called 911 to report the incident. Considering that the first 911 call about a "white moving van" was totally anonymous.

You also stated:

"These Israelis had foreknowledge most likely because they had actively participated in the preparations of the placing explosives in WTC."

Can you show me this information because as far as I know they claimed they were documenting the event. That doesn't mean they knew or helped with the event. Show me please or if anyone else other then Anonymous believes this, please fill me in.

Scrubby's picture

i think you got a point

Im not quite so sure what to make of this story.
'Active participation', i dont know... their actions seem *very* unprofessional if thats the case...
Talking about 'to document the event' on TV ?
And then, this story was on Fox. Hmmmm.
I just dont know.
But the 'muslims and zionists were setup' idea sounds very far fetched to me too. And i also dont think the dancing dudes are the only thing 9/11 thats pointing towards Israel...
What about the whole Silverstein / Eisenberg etc angle for example.....

Annoymouse's picture

> Talking about 'to document

> Talking about 'to document the event' on TV ?

Everyone who broke out a camera that morning was engaged in documenting the event. The phrase "we were there to document the event" does not imply any suspicious foreknowledge of anything. The fact that they appeared to be joking, however, that was moronic. There's only two plausible explanations.

If you wish to assume that these people were at all connected with any type of conspiracy, then the only way that could make sense is that they were meant to get arrested. Maybe some master-planners somewhere decided that it might better distract away from "A Clean Break" if a few loud-mouthed Israelis were arrested and held for awhile, then allowed to go, with FOX reporting on it.

Otherwise, one must simply assume that these people had nothing to do with anything. Even if you were to assume that Silverstein was at the heart of a plot, that doesn't mean that every person connected with Israel in the area is in on it. These could just have been some loud-mouthed dooshbags who began cracking jokes on their own about the Towers being hit and drew attention.

Jpass's picture

It's all far fetched...

Hi Scrubby,

Considering that someone wired three buildings with explosives, orchestrated a phony hijacking diversion with 4 planes, then crashed 2 of them into the WTC complex and 1 into the Pentagon...no I don't think it's far fetched that "Fanatical Muslims" or "Fanatical Jews" would be used to shield the true perps.

I find it hard to believe that Silverstein would purchase a lease on the WTC complex only months before he planned to help destroy it. Considering this guy was possibly framed, then the Larry's lease purchase might have been the opportunity the perps needed to move forward with their plans.

Scrubby's picture

point taken

that its all far fetched.
And i certainly don't doubt that "Fanatical Muslims" are being used to shield the true perps.
As for this:

"I find it hard to believe that Silverstein would purchase a lease on the WTC complex only months before he planned to help destroy it."

I find that hard to believe too, but again, its not the only thing hard to believe in this whole story....

Jpass's picture

touché

"I find that hard to believe too, but again, its not the only thing hard to believe in this whole story.... "

touché

gretavo's picture

Harvard Crimson Iran War Pimp Alert!

Martha Minow Faces Challenges

Harvard Law School has a history of acrimonious relationships with its administrators, but when Martha Minow was appointed dean this summer the chatter in the faculty canteen was overwhelmingly positive.

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Annoymouse's picture

Treason, Betrayal and Deceit: 9/11 and Beyond

Treason, Betrayal and Deceit: 9/11 and Beyond

Pretty gutsy from informationclearinghouse.info

incidentally I queued a couple good replies in the flu/Goldman-Sachs thread 2 days ago, never showed. One linked to a story about 6 biochem scientists at Harvard recently poisoned, though not to death.
http://www.courant.com/news/nation-world/hc-harvard-lab-workers-poisoned...

had several other links too. Hope these aren't sitting in a mod queue unnoticed or something! The current bio-war against humanity is intensifying, strange new strains in Ukraine & Bavaria killing folks. See more @ http://theflucase.com