Frightening Peek Into the Developing Minds of Young Democrats

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Posted on Fri, 02/29/2008 - 9:28am by Sam Novey
thats it! screw nascar dads, soccer moms, women over 55, blue collar catholics...the presidential candidates should be competing for the "real truther" vote!

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How about the "American who
Posted on Fri, 02/29/2008 - 10:53am by Real Truther (not verified)
How about the "American who doesn't like to be attacked, lied to about who attacked them and tricked into attacking people who had nothing to do with the original attack" vote? Now there's a big demographic! So, Mr. Novey, would you like to go on the record saying something about 9/11? Like why you feel you need to mock and insult people who believe it was not properly investigated? Please do elaborate, as this is for posterity, and people in the future will be very interested to know what the heck was wrong with all the Harvard Democrats that they continued to pretend that nothing was wrong in the most challenging period of America's history. So far there doesn't seem to be a single one of you who can discuss this issue in a mature way. Of course we know your excuse already--what I am saying is beyond the pale, yatta yatta. You can only believe this of course by not actually bothering to study the issue and what people on both sides of it say. It's like fox news viewers who know that Bush is a great president because they refuse to bother considering what his critics have to say, since his critics obviously just hate him. The fact that none of you--not one--can actually express why you think I'm wrong to be focusing on this issue is the most telling part of all of this. Surely you could easily put me in my place and make me look like the fool I am if indeed I'm wrong and you're right, so let's hear it!

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Two things. First, I assume
Posted on Fri, 02/29/2008 - 12:19pm by Markus Kolic
Two things. First, I assume you meant "yada" instead of "yatta", but that won't stop me from sharing a DISTRACTING VIDEO:

Second, speaking for myself, I think you're wrong to focus on this issue because it detracts from what everyone with a brain in this country has a duty to work on -- specifically, stopping the right-wing corporate takeover of our economy and politics, fixing the health care crisis, getting our troops out of Iraq ASAP, and alleviating climate change. Railing about the past does not help the future.

But we've had this exact argument many times, RT, and I imagine neither of us has much more to gain from it... ;)

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Posted on Fri, 02/29/2008 - 1:53pm by Real Truther (not verified)

There you go Markus, so that you can practice your nihongo AND learn something you "don't already know". You see, the rest of the world is a few steps ahead of the US, no doubt because the lack of the same emotional block that Americans have about the subject. Now, when a member of the parliament of one of America's stauchest allies confronts his prime minister with the same evidence of fraud related to 9/11 that a growing number of Americans are discussing, you would THINK that it would be big news in America right? Even if only to prove as your own embedded vid does how weird the Japanese are? Nope, because the Japanese parliament, just like Harvard's administrative staff and alumni, counts among its ranks so many "loonie conspiracy theorists"!

As for not having much to gain from this argument, Markus, you speak only for yourself. I have quite a bit to gain from bringing it up and asking you all to state your positions on it. Not just material for my book manuscript about the struggle to expose the 9/11 fraud at Harvard (how could so many geniuses have been so clueless?!), but the knowledge that I am doing everything I can to right a gross injustice. You know how people wonder a lot about how Germans could have allowed Hitler to do everything he did? They're not going to have to wonder why Americans allowed the 9/11 fraud to go unchallenged for so long--because we didn't allow it to go on! We fought it and exposed it and will tell the whole story when people are ready to hear it (and that time is rapidly approaching, gents...) and right now I'm afraid the lovable gang of jesters here is not going to come off looking exactly noble and wise...

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(Sorry Raul, I want to keep
Posted on Fri, 02/29/2008 - 2:10pm by Markus Kolic
(Sorry Raul, I want to keep going with this. I enjoy these arguments.)

I'm a little upset that, as you say below, you "don't buy the whole "we don't discuss it because it's not relevant" line." That's not a line, it's my actual position, so let me try to illustrate it a little further.

I think we all agree that 9/11 was used as a pretext for the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq by a Bush administration & neocon establishment which had already been planning such military action. There is evidence of this. Nobody's saying these people responded properly to 9/11. Our political arguments thus ought to focus on the insane priority systems of Republican policymakers, right? Shouldn't we be demonstrating that conservatism is morally and intellectually bankrupt, so that American voters can make sure these things never happen again? Do we have a higher priority than preventing further loss of life?

An analogy: say it was 1970 and we were all trying to put an end to the obvious horrible injustice that was the Vietnam War. Would we really want to focus on whether Lee Harvey Oswald had actually shot JFK? Obviously not, regardless of how often we were pestered by "GRASSYKNOLL.COM" or whoever. We would be worrying about Nixon, trying to pressure legislators, trying to teach and motivate the public to stand for peace. Carping about past national traumas, understandably, does not help those goals.

A more abstract analogy to illustrate my logic: say I want to buy a burrito, as I often do, so I walk to Felipe's. On the way there I find $5 on the sidewalk. I use that $5 to buy my burrito. Then I eat my burrito and it tastes like crap. What is the important question here? Is it:
1. Why did my burrito taste so bad?,
2. Why do I continue to buy these awful burritos?, or

I'm sure you see it differently (and for the record I actually find Felipe's burritos delicious), but hopefully that makes my reasoning more clear...

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For the life of me I can't
Posted on Fri, 02/29/2008 - 5:05pm by Real Truther (not verified)
For the life of me I can't understand what you're trying to say here. You act as if I am suggesting that because there is some slight possibility that 9/11 was not what we were told we should abandon every other pursuit in life. Not exactly what I'm saying, not even close.

I am saying not that there is a chance, but that we have definitely been lied to about 9/11, that this can be determined by anyone able to think critically and willing to look at all the facts, and that the obvious conclusion is that this is the most important issue facing Americans today because it shows without a shadow of a doubt that the so-called "war on terror" is a fraud. We are not even coming close to holding accountable those responsible for the crimes that were committed that day. Old news you say? Well, it so hapens that when you let people get away with crimes, they will probably commit more. I simply don't follow your reasoning that after a certain amount of time you just have to accept that the truth is irrelevant. And let me reiterate--we don't know the whole truth, which is why we need a real investigation--but we know some of it, and the part we do know is already serious enough to merit AT THE VERY LEAST a serious discussion of the facts. No one is saying that you have to shave your head and take a vow of poverty because of this--a good start would be to actually demonstrate that you understand what the issue entails. If you have time for all the silly youtube nonsense that gets put up on this blog, then crying " distraction!" is kind of lame...

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after a certain amount of
Posted on Fri, 02/29/2008 - 5:23pm by Markus Kolic
after a certain amount of time you just have to accept that the truth is irrelevant

There is no statute of limitations on truth, but there is on political issues. You are free to go ahead and pursue whatever question you like, but for those of us who are committed to using American political discourse as a tool to improve the nation -- as you'd find at a Democrats blog -- we intend to focus on those issues which are politically salient. Talking about 9/11, especially in a manner like this which is inflammatory and divisive, is simply not productive.

I'd add also that focusing on an individual incident and an individual group of people, rather than the systemic problems within the conservative ideology that have caused numerous tragedies and injustices through history and are still doing so today, seems an awful myopic way to take on our problems.

(BTW, the silly YouTube stuff is just entertainment for the troops. Keeps things lively -- imagine how boring this blog would get without it. On the other hand, I think I'm the only person who finds this conversation entertaining.)

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I suppose I'm having trouble
Posted on Fri, 02/29/2008 - 7:10pm by Anonymous (not verified)
I suppose I'm having trouble because I sincerely can't believe that you could be this much of an apparatchik at such a tender age, Markus! It sounds like what you're saying is that one need not take seriously a genuine cry of "FIRE!" because it is not "politically salient" which I imagine means something akin to won't be discussed in a serious manner in the corporate media. It seems, in other words, that your idea of Democracy (as a Democrats' blog) is to not take something seriously if it does not have the imprimatur of at least one of any number of corporate for-profit media outlets (CNN, NYT, CBS, ETC) vouching for its suitability for discussion.

Does the phrase "Increasingly out of touch with your base" mean anything to y'all?

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The Democratic base I see is
Posted on Fri, 02/29/2008 - 7:43pm by Markus Kolic
The Democratic base I see is more concerned with whether they'll still have a job and a pension next week, whether they can pay for their medication and their heating bill at the same time, and whether the government is going to stop handing their money away in tax breaks for corporations and the wealthy. Those are the salient issues I'm talking about; the Democratic Party is supposed to stand up for the little guy, right? All our political maneuvering is in the service of that goal.

Anyway I don't mean to prolong a dying discussion.

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Dying? Markus, old boy
Posted on Sat, 03/01/2008 - 5:41am by Real Truther (not verified)
Dying? Markus, old boy it's really just about to begin! :)

Here's a question for you Markus, and it's a hypothetical. Suppose that the base that is concerned about their health care and fuel costs were to learn that the events of 9/11 were grossly misrepresented. Don't you think they would want an investigation conducted or at the very least a serious look by the "opposition" party into those facts? Given that energy prices skyrocketed as a result of 9/11? And that the justifications given to them for the huge outlays in blood and treasure were cut out of whole cloth? Given that it is "defense" spending and interest on previous deficits because of prior "defense" spending that gives politicians a perfect excuse for why the gov can't afford to pay for its citizens' medical care...? And that's if the sheer audacity of the fraud itself isn't enough to spur them to action...

Markus, really...