LIHOP is the New Britney Spears - Reports From the LIHOP Offensive Front

gretavo's picture

The latest attack on the real truth movement is a doozie.  Not that it will have much of an impact, but here it is:

Al-Qaeda kingpin: I trained 9/11 hijackers - Times Online

 

SOmeone (it's hard not to try to guess) over at 911Blogger has posted it but their site seems to be having issues so I can't actually see who it was, or what they say about this blatant piece of LIHOPPERY.

It's amazing what they've tried to accomplish in this article.  Not just linking four of the alleged hijackers to--you guessed it--Turkey, but also claiming that the arab muslim who allegedly piloted AA77 into the Pentagon was not our friend Hapless Hani Hanjour, but one of the other dudes, one who actually seemed to his instructors to have some inkling as to how to control his cessna.  Knock another unsolved mystery of 9/11 down--thanks as usual to an al Qaeda terrist holed up in some jail for the info.

The article above is required reading, since it's important to keep abreast of the storyline that the LIHOPPERS will be pushing.  Already the bedunkers are calling the new Scripps poll proof of nothing but what many of them have been saying for so long--that a majority of Americans understand that BushCo may have let the attacks happen on purpose.  For evidence of this phenom, see the comments at: Poll: Rise of the Truthers? - Hot Air

Make no mistake, this is a last ditch effort to save the Islamofascist myth from an early and well-earned grave.  The demolition of the WTC is so obvious that they seem to have decided not to even contest that (within the "truth movement").  The strategy seems to be to overwhelm that angle with a series of "sensational" LIHOPPY revelations.  Ultimately, as a few people on Truthaction have figured out, the case for demolition will be ruled inconclusive.  The evidence will simply be declared insufficient to remove doubt that this unprecedented catastrophe would have occured exactly as we witnessed (people who have been following along will recognize the embryonic defense strategy of Larry S and others here)

Once the pesky demolition theorists have been "debunked" their formerly loyal truther friends will say--"forget it, it's over with the demolition angle.  our best hope now is to focus on foreknowledge of evil arab muslim hijacker plans!"

Ah, but the public has a mind of its own--millions of them in fact, and a 5th quarter admission in overtime that Oh yeah, THIS is how 9/11 actually went down is just not going to hold much water or carry much weight unless it removes all doubt and answers all questions, which LIHOP never could and never will.  The more they try, the more we need to stand our ground and call them out.  That way, they will fall into the bedunker habit of calling us fanatics and deluded.  At that point people will realize that it's those fanatical and deluded people who have been right all along.

Fool us once--shame on you.  Fool us twice?  Nuh-uh, buddy--can't get fooled again.  Bring it on, LIHOP saboteurs, bring it on.  And save your sorry and empty calls for "unity" for your pals at HotAir.com and the Times of India.

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Jpass's picture

Turkey Intel

And the goose chase continues.....

I read the piece. Get ready for another story of the ever elusive 'tripple agent'...this guy that you've never heard of but who trained the al quiedians for the grand attack....or so he claims....years after 911.

I don't doubt that SOMEONE trained SOMEONE ELSE SOMEWHERE....but these stories of triple spook agents who have been in solitary for YEARS now coming out with a grand story.

Jon might think I'm being a big meany here...but maybe Gold can consider this...

If there is a path to 911 Truth do you really think it's through grand stories of double, triple, and even quad-agents working for the CIA, Turkey Intel., Syrian Intel, and Al quieda? These guys have been in solitary for how long?

I'm not bashing anyone's research but I am saying that it would seem smarter to focus on sure fire topics that don't require access to top sekrit information that may or may not exist but that we will surely never have access to.

Annoymouse's picture

Philly / McCain confrontation

this one was hopeful, but they poison it with "Turkish Intel has infiltrated the CIA" and "KSM the 911 Mastermind!" nonsense.

http://911blogger.com/node/12670

So, what now, we're going to get "We Are Change" chapters fearlessly confronting politicians, asking pointed (disinfo/LIHOP) questions, and posting the gootube vids to mislead other Truthers??

Keenan's picture

I find it fascinating that

I find it fascinating that no less than 5 people on truthaction.org (including a couple who have just recently signed up) have suddenly taken the position that controlled demolition is not proven and that those who say it is proven (like just about the whole entire truth movement) are a bunch of religious zealots who go around burning people at the stake who question cd. Where do these people come from? In all my years of 9/11 truthing, I have never met a single "truther" on the streets or in meetings or at events (and I have met thousands) who have attempted to pull out of their deriers (sp?) such fantastically creative and complicated and endless "what-ifs" to explain away the explosions throughout the 3 wtc towers. Previously, I've only heard this absurdity from non-truthers. But, who listens to non-truthers anymore. Only a "truther" can get us to debate this stuff within the movement. Perhaps that's the point.

It would be interesting to look at how many of the "truther" dubunkers are coincidently the same ones who are seemingly able to spend all their waking hours blogging on truth forums (whereas most of us actually have to go out and make a living during the day), and who take it upon themselves to correct the "problem" that so many of us are 100% convinced of cd, as well as the problem that so many of us don't accept the other parts of the OCT that upholds the scary muslim terrorist myth. Gosh, aren't we lucky that these few loud voices in the truth movement (at least on the blogsphere, if not in the street) help direct us to the proper beliefs? Hmmm...A lot of Johns/Jons come to mind... 

 Is it a coincidence that on the streets that the vast majority of truthers are MIHOPers, while on the blogsphere, one might get the impression that most are LIHOPers, given the dominance that the "truth" crusaders, taking it upon themselves to fix the problem that so many of us don't believe in the Arab/Muslim part of the OCT, in filling up the bandwidth by a few very high profile (and seemingly full time) bloggers?

 For those of us who actually have to go out and make a living during the day, it sure is a little hard to compete with those (like Arabesque) who don't apparently have a day job (or, perhaps they DO). If I could spend countless hours writing really long blog postings with colorful graphics and a support staff that quickly compiles quotes and relevant references, I could probably...well, 'nuf said...

gretavo's picture

i think we all know what's going on

let's take it as a compliment--we're clearly doing a pretty good job if they have to seed the movement with a whole new crop of subtle disinfo shills.  First the calls for unity and discouraging of calling people (shills) out as shills.  Now a new breed of shill introduced.  It seems they want us to waste our time discussing the physical case for CD.  Why don't we start talking about the history of the WTC privatization--Lewis Eisenberg at the Port Authority, Silverstein and Lowy's "winning" bid, and all the rest?  Remember they are not necessarily trying to win the CD argument--this is most likely an attempt to occupy us with a waste of time...

kate of the kiosk's picture

even Chomsky

would most likely agree with you on this point, Gretavo!

 

"...most likely an attempt to occupy us with a waste of time..."

gretavo's picture

hee hee

true, true, trouché!

Annoymouse's picture

"I find it fascinating that

"I find it fascinating that no less than 5 people on truthaction.org (including a couple who have just recently signed up) have suddenly taken the position that controlled demolition is not proven..."

I noticed that too @ truthaction recently. But I've seen it all year long at an unrelated messageboard where 911 Truth is often discussed. These shills try to build credibility across a variety of subjects, and then when it comes to WTC CD, they say the most shamelessly idiotic things seeking to obfuscate CD ("no evidence of CD, none!"), and they're persistent and seem to have all day to post their BS. What's nice though is the more honest/credible users eventually just ignore the shill/troll, and don't waste any time with them.

Tahooey's picture

at least 2 goals

they're after are

1) waste time of truthers debunking and arguing the same old tired crap.

2) give casual observers false impressions about the truth movement

3) further confuse casual observers about 911 itself

Annoymouse's picture

Keenan,

Re:
"I find it fascinating that no less than 5 people on truthaction.org (including a couple who have just recently signed up) have suddenly taken the position that controlled demolition is not proven..."

It's also notable that the "don't overstate CD!" campaign began at around the same time as the "we need lefty-vs-righty compartmentalization within this movement!" campaign began.

Things that make you go HMMMM.

gretavo's picture

lefty vs righty compartmentalization...

Yeah, I think what we really need is more shilly vs. legity compartmentalization.  with all respect for YT I don't like the obsession with the politics of the movement that his "big tent" approach seems to foster.  some people are so caught up in such catty BS about each other (esp. about obvious mega-disinfo shills) that they seem to do little else.  dead weight, wannabe "leaders", jeez, it's like a microcosm of the real world--no surprise i guess...

casseia's picture

In his defense

I don't think YT is altogether responsible for the "corporate culture" that has evolved over there -- in addition to a couple of additional moderators (CV, imgstacke) a few other people feel a certain sense of ownership about the place because they were lumped in with YT in the Kennebunkport scandal.  I think they're quite influential.

gretavo's picture

which just supports my suspicion

that "attacks" like the Kennebunport Warning fiasco are designed to set off a selected group as the "good guys".  it's just too much drama to be real, sorry.  i don't care who that alienates, I have zero tolerance for bullshit these days.  Frown

Annoymouse's picture

Jenny Sparks

Whats up with her?
Dunno, i used to like her posts and humour, a while ago.
Nowadays, i find her pretty annyoing. She seems to enjoy going on about Nico and the Screwloose dudes forever. WTF.
Her 'always on top' style is getting old.

Annoymouse's picture

reading my mind again are we?

agreed... Jenny needs to change the channel once in a while

Annoymouse's picture

Boy are you right about that!

Over half of the new posts over there are divisive. Outside of YT's posts and a couple of other posts almost every new post has been related to attacks on someone within the movement or attacks at rock solid evidence.

CD overstated, Pentacon, attacks on Barrett or Gage...man it's pretty sad to see what's happening over there. YT's a good guy, but I think he should put his foot down on some of that cause its gotten way out of hand.

Danse's picture

Wow.  Talk about pot and

Wow.  Talk about pot and kettle.    If you guys are gonna engage in this type of backbiting at least have the balls to show up on the forum you're trashing and present your case in person (so to speak).   I mean, if I'm not mistaken all three of you have accounts over there -- why the Janus Halloween mask impression?    

gretavo's picture

point taken, sort of...

the point is that we're complaining about people we presumed at one point to be serious about truthing, as opposed to obsessing with obvious disinfo clowns like Nico Haupt.  Plus this is a minor proportion of what we discuss here--we are hardly one-trick ponies who dwell on movement politics.  While the sentiment of the big tent approach is right, in practice it has shown to be far too susceptible to bogus calls for unity that seem pretty transparently to be more about avoiding certain very important subjects than anything else.  A case in point is when I mentioned Silverstein being Hillary's top campaign contributor and imgstacke called me a liar based on his 2 minute lookup on opensecrets.  For the most part I HAVE expressed these views "in person" but what's the point, when some people are simply determined to try to impute the worst motives to anyone who tries to make valid critiques?  Whatever, man, I've made it clear in the past that I am not interested in winning any popularity or congeniality contests.  To me the most important thing, the ONLY reason in fact to do what I do is to get the truth.  Not to ask for it, or even demand it, but to actively look for it, and that necessarily means calling em like I see em without exception or compromise.  And ALL of this online stuff is only half of what truthing is all about--I spend more time working to raise awareness in real life than I do online.

Danse's picture

“as opposed to obsessing

“as opposed to obsessing with obvious disinfo clowns like
Nico Haupt”

There are one or two people on the truthaction forum who
devote extravagant attention to the weirdo wing of the movement. Doesn’t really bother me. For the most part it’s just an amusing
diversion. I’m sure most there see it that way.

“Plus this is a minor proportion of what we discuss here--we
are hardly one-trick ponies who dwell on movement politics.”

I think the description of “movement politics” is more
befitting of this website than truthaction, personally.

“big tent approach”

I don’t see how this relates to truthaction. At all.
In fact one of the rodents here just finished criticizing the site for
being “divisive”. And I quote:

“Over half of the new posts over there are divisive…CD
overstated, Pentacon, attacks on Barrett or Gage...man it's pretty sad to see
what's happening over there.”

What you see above is a perfect example of the “big tent”
approach. Conflicting evidence of what
transpired at the Pentagon is conflated with rock solid evidence of what
happened at the WTC, while Richard Gage – one of the shining stars of the truth
movement – is mixed up with Kevin Barret.
Barret, you’ll recall, is the guy who sticks his foot in the door every
time someone tries to slam it shut on a Fetzer or a Woods or a “kill da jooz!”
type, welcoming every imaginable species of vermin into the ever-growing
tent. THIS is exactly why it is
necessary to devote at least SOME time to addressing the quacks.

I would go so far as to say that truthaction has been
labeled “divisive” more than any other 911 site in existence, largely due to
the KB warning. Hardly an indication
of the big tent fallacy. You yourself
just finished referring to the reemergence of the “left/right” dichotomy. Personally, I would prefer differences in
opinion be acknowledged and brought out into the light of day rather than
adhering to a false unity in the dark.
The terms “left and right”, like “lihop” and “mihop”, are obviously
insufficient to explain the range of opinion we see amongst truthers, but
beneath those terms are very important issues that will eventually have to be
addressed. For too long the agenda has
been set by backward-thinking authoritarian ultra-paranoids. I’m glad the gospel according to Alex Jones
is being challenged for once.

“A case in point is when I mentioned Silverstein being
Hillary's top campaign contributor and imgstacke called me a liar based on his
2 minute lookup on opensecrets.”

It was uncalled for, I agree, just as I think your
vilification of Arabesque (for example) was uncalled for. There is a grand canyon sized difference
between constructive criticism and ad hominem attacks with not-so-subtle
insinuations of shillery. Speaking of
which, you wrote above:

“that "attacks" like the Kennebunport Warning
fiasco are designed to set off a selected group as the "good
guys". it's just too much drama to be real, sorry.”

Who are these “good guys”?
Careful: best to tread lightly here lest there be no one left to label a
government agent ;) The point I’m
trying to make is that the people behind these avatars have feelings too. It’s not necessary to create a hostile
environment when constructive criticism is sufficient.

“some people are simply determined to try to impute the
worst motives to anyone who tries to make valid critiques?”

Dare I point out the irony in this statement? ;)

“I am not interested in winning any popularity or
congeniality contests.”

There’s brave, vigilant, penetrating, meticulous,
constructively critical and wise and then there’s reckless, sensationalistic,
sloppy, needlessly hurtful and foolish.
The first are productive attributes, the second are not.

None of this was written with malice. I took the time to reply because (with some
exceptions) I enjoy your posts, and those Casseia’s, and those of most of the
others here too. I’d much prefer to
see a harmonious relationship with sites like this and truthmove, truthaction
etc. than have us demean ourselves with petty squabbling. That means we have to exercise a tiny bit of
tact.

P.S.: I think both CV and Imgstacke are doing a great job on the site.

kate of the kiosk's picture

hey, hey, hey, brothers and sisters

i think we should stop arguing, take a deep breath, open our hearts and minds, and then take a few moments to read Lazlo's last post.  what do we feel about this? it is the elephant in the room. we need a way to reach out to our jewish and israeli friends, as i keep saying....

casseia's picture

All three of who?

The annoymice? Me, gretavo, Keenan, you, Kate -- who else?

Jpass's picture

Speaking of McCain...

John McCain's father was an admiral in the navy I believe and helped cover-up the USS Liberty affair. My coincedence box is getting full.

gretavo's picture

Operation LIHOP Continues Apace!

http://pajamasmedia.com/2007/11/tinfoil_nation_why_911_conspir.php

Now we have three (or four) camps. 

There is the camp that says that LIHOP is BS--that there were no actionable warnings, including the vague PDB that Bush got in August.  This group is overtly anti-truth, they believe the Islamofascists genuinely surprised us. 

Next there is the controlled left Daily Kos types who insist that they are not conspiracy theorists but that Bush clearly SHOULD have known something was up--they are the incompetence theorists. 

Third we have the truthers, who are actually in two groups themselves.  We have the subtle disinfo crowd whose mission is to preserve the Islamofascist myth by supporting LIHOP (whether or not they try to downplay the demolition of the WTC as "inconclusive")  [edit: or who sincerely think that part of the scheme involved actual hijackings, though no credible evidence supports it]

 To come back full circle we have all the real truthers who agree with the first group that warnings were vague and about something that didn't even happen, so worthless.  We also disagree with LIHOP but unlike the first crowd it is because we do not see any evidence that the hijackings occured as advertised, instead we want to know who blew up the WTC.

The plan of course is to frame the debate around the first three groups, with the subtle disinfo truthers being a kind of firewall--they will gladly let themselves be characterized as "truther kooks" so long as that means people will see demolition proponents as "beyond the pale".

Truth accordingly, friends!

Annoymouse's picture

Well said

Indeed, you have broken this down nicely and pretty accurate, my friend. One thing i want to add is, concerning the LIHOP 'truthers', i dont see this all as 'disinfo crowd' (with the odd exception or two). I think a big part - the majority - is composed of people that smell something is up with 911 , but are simply too scared of the consequences of being a 'conspiracy theorist'. They try to stay 'in line' as much as possible, and CD doesnt allow this so much. Of course this 'CD is for kooks' image is being held up and intensified by others. Just a thought.

Keep up the good work!
T++

gretavo's picture

sure...

no doubt there are plenty of people who are perfectly sincere and who still fall into any one of the categories I listed.  It's funny though, I just talked to about 6 students during my lunch break, who were totally unfamiliar with the case for the truth and the easiest thing to talk about was the demolitions.  Then of course one asked, "so how did they time it to happen with the hijackings?"

Instead of going into "evidence" that the hijackings may have been allowed to happen I simply said that we can't know for sure about the hijcakings, and cited the flimsy case for IDing the alleged hijackers.  I said that there are different theories but that we can't say for sure, and that it doesn't really have any bearing on the demolition.  I explained that even director Mueller of the FBI admitted that we couldn't be sure about the hijackers' identity--need we say more?  After all, we're saying that 9/11 wasn't properly investigated and that's one clear sign of that.

Prove LIHOP and you basically add some administration characters to the list of arabs and muslims who hate us and our freedoms.  Point out the demolitions that are self-evident and you expose the entire sham as murderous theatre.

The 9/11 Truth Movement is BY DEFINITION the WTC demolition movement.  It is NOT the "how could the administration have ignored warnings of hijackings" (or LIHOP) movement.

Annoymouse's picture

...

Yes. The difference between the official version/status quo and LIHOP is basically, hm, not that big at all. As you said, it adds a few names to the list of 'evil' people, and thats it. There really is no big difference, the major myth is still up.
Not even mentioning the fact that the line between 'incompetence' and 'lihop' is of course everything else but clear and could possibly never be drawn...

gretavo's picture

the other problem with LIHOP

is that it makes no sense to accept the hijackings as legitimate AND accept that the towers were demolished.  if it isn't clear why, imagine you are the perps, and have spent the last week or two setting your demolition charges.  you now sit and wait for a complex hijacking plot to be carried out by a group of suicide jihadis?  what if Atta's flight from Maine the morning of 9/11 had been delayed?  What if the hijackerrs' boxcutters had set off the metal detectors?  What if the passengers on the twin tower-bound flights had fought their hijackers and forced an early crash?  In other words, what if one of the towers failed to be hit by a plane?  What then?  You wait around for the next convenient pretext before blowing up the buildings?  Not likely.

What is liely is that the planesa that were flown into the towers were directed to their targets by something other than a suicidal arab muslim hijacker/amateur pilot.  Whether it was GPS, a homing signal, remote navigation, whatever.  Whether the planes that hit the towers really were flights AA77 and UA175.

What's more, is EVEN IF you assume LIHOP, it has nothing to do with the demolition of the WTC!  Assuming the hijackers were real, and the hijackings happened as advertised, so what?  You have 4 plane crashes BUT NO TOWER COLLAPSES.  EVEN IF they knew about planned hijackings and did nothing, we STILL HAVE TO FIND OUT WHO DECIDED TO DEMOLISH THE BUILDINGS.  We STILL HAVE TO FIND OUT WHO MURDERED EVERYONE WHO DIED IN THE COLLAPSES as opposed to the plane crashes.  We still have to find out who is ultimately responsible for the pulverization of the building contents making all the first responders get cancer.

To suggest or imply (let alone state outright) that the demolition of the WTC is not any more important or central to the 9/11 crimes than the issue of whether the alleged hijackings were allowed to occur or identifying who may have sent money to the alleged hijackers is an untenable position period.  Those who continue to pretend that this is not the case should not be trusted any farther than they can be thrown by my grandmother.

Annoymouse's picture

LIHOP crash

As boring as it is, I have to agree with you 100% again.
It still boggles my mind that so many 'truthers' out there think of the remote controlled airplanes - 'theory' as being totally out there and crazy. Makes you wonder if they ever thought the whole thing trough... i guess the 'fear of being a nutcase outsider' kicks in before.
Also, again - as with CD (where we got the crime and the coverup)- its not just ONE thing pointing at such a scenario. Its not just the CD that required the planes to hit 100%, theres also the 'unusual' flight paths - flown by a bunch of hobby pilots, the wargames, radar confusion, etc... and again, the coverup. All sort of fits in, i would say.
That said - even tho im a pretty strong believer in the plane-swap/remote controlled scenario, i never use that as an entry point for newbies. Let them chew on the demolitions first...

gretavo's picture

boring is good in 9/11 truth world

thanbks for taking the time to agree.  I'm right there with you as far as remote control planes goes.  I think it's the most likely explanation but I avoid any discussion of the planes at all except to say that they couldn't have made the buildings collapse the way they did.  Once people understand the towers were demolished then they will have the right frame of mind to evaluate the more difficult to believe scenarios, NOT the other way around.  That's what is so infuriating about those who claim the exact opposite--that physical evidence is easily lied about and that we best try to prove LIHOP first.  Now at least I know why some people used to make such a big deal out of assuring everyone that LIHOP always leads to MIHOP.  Yeah, until the LIHOP pushers start to poopoo demolition as "speculation"...  So much of this is just manipulative psychological herd mentality BS.  Don't you wanna be part of the "in crowd" of truthing?  Don't you want to be respected and admired by all the "famous" truthers?  BAAAARRRRFFF.  No, in fact.  I want to blow this thing wide open so I can go back to living my normal life knowing that enough responsible honest people are on the case, thank you very much.