Why was the fire in WTC7 not put out?

gretavo's picture

it looks like there really were water problems, though that doesn't mean that wtc7 could have collapsed the way it did. i do wonder about the pics with the melted firetruck--how is that supposed to have happened, hm? and since Silverstein claims that when he said "maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it" he meant that the "contingent of firefighters" should be "pulled out of the building", one has to wonder either why an entire contingent of firefighters could not handle such a small fire, or in fact what they were using to fight the fire if there was no water available--where is the anecdotal evidence, anonymous, from those who were part of the contingent of firefighters in building 7 referred to by Silverstein? Here's another view--note the fire has spread from where it is in the graphic above, i.e. just on the east face to include the north face as well. apparently it was more important to hose down an already destroyed WTC6 than to put out the fire burning in wtc7 which had a number of very important offices.

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gretavo's picture

graphic: why wasn't wtc 7 fire put out?

>bump!<

Annoymouse's picture

There were indeed reports

There were indeed reports from firemen and others on the scene about problems with water pressure, making it difficult to operate firehoses:

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html

Captain Chris Boyle: "It was right underneath building 7 and it was still burning at the time. They had a hose in operation, but you could tell there was no pressure. It was barely making it across the street... I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure... They had no pressure at all off of any of the hydrants from Broadway. He was asking if there was any way that we could do anything at Broadway or West. From Broadway to West westward toward Church Street there was no pressure at all..."

http://web.archive.org/web/20050215113515/http://www.unbr.cz/groundzeroe...

"Shortly after the second tower collapsed, we lost gas and high-pressure steam service to the hospital. This was a part of a large-scale shutdown of services by our utility, Con Edison, based on their concern over gas and steam leaks. In addition, due to the number of hydrants opened by the firefighters on the scene, we also lost water pressure to the building, leading to fears of losing water altogether. Staff were immediately notified to conserve water."

gretavo's picture

here's another angle--such tiny fires!

and since Silverstein claims that when he said "maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it" he meant that the "contingent of firefighters" should be "pulled out of the building", one has to wonder why an entire contingent of firefighters could not handle such a small fire--where is the anecdotal evidence, anonymous, from those who were part of the contingent of firefighters in building 7 referred to by Silverstein? Here's another view--note the fire has spread from where it is in the graphic above, i.e. just on the east face to include the north face as well. apparently it was more important to hose down an already destroyed WTC6 than to put out the fire burning in wtc7 which had a number of very important offices.

gretavo's picture

ok here's some grabs from a 9/11 video

it looks like there really were water problems, though that doesn't mean that wtc7 culd have collapsed the way it did. i do wonder about the pics with the melted firetruck--how is that supposed to have happened, hm?

Annoymouse's picture

Report of a fire in

Report of a fire in Lawrence, Massachusetts, January 21, 2008:

http://www.tahlequahdailypress.com/cnhi/cnhinsstories/editorspicks_story...

"But with the ice, there was fire | flames so hot it melted one side of a firetruck. Takvorian said firefighters turned the hose on Engine 9 at the corner of Parker and Springfield streets to cool it down."

gretavo's picture

where's the picture?

I think by "melted" they mean it softened and warped. To literally melt a hole in steel requires reaching temperatures of 2800 degrees F or more.

Annoymouse's picture

"softened and warped"

That sounds like what is seen in the 911 photos. The picture of the truck with the 18 on it still shows a basic frame standing, although a lot of damage has been done to the truck (probably from flying debris as much as from fire melting the truck). It's not as if that one completely melted either, at least not at the time that picture was taken.

gretavo's picture

The 3 fireboats on 9/11...

The "Fire Fighter":



The "John D. McKean"

http://goingcoastal.wordpress.com/2007/07/25/fireboat-fleet-proves-an-fdny-savior/

The "John J. Harvey"

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/17_Pharvey.html

 And here's some handy info about Arson. Unfortunately we missed Arson Week 2009 by a few days...

 


Arson Awareness Week: Arson for Profit in the U.S.

There is no gain for the fire service


Posted: 05-03-2009
Updated: 05-03-2009 11:59:36 PM



JERRY STREICH
For Firehouse.com

Arson Awareness Week is May 3 - 9 and this year's theme is "Arson for Profit." Please check the links below for more from the U.S. Fire Administration.

The 2009 theme for arson awareness week, May 3-9, is "Arson for Profit." This motive of arson is when someone intentionally sets a fire for their financial gain. Whether someone invested in a company that failed to pay out the projected amount of dividends, a business going sour, or a vehicle owner who can not continue to make payments on his loan, setting a fire to collect insurance for whatever reason is a crime.

Any way you look at it there is no benefit for public safety officials or the community when it comes to arson. We are subjected to added risk and expenses. Intentionally set fires are often hotter and spread more rapidly, primarily because the arsonist want to make sure the fire grows and often use ignitable liquids to fuel the fire. According to the Insurance Information Institute, arson for profit fires destroyed nearly $900 million in property loss and killed 295 civilians in 2007. $900 million is very close to one billion.

In order to give you an idea of what one billion is I have added some facts:

  • One billion is a thousand million.
  • If you were to count nonstop to one billion, it would take you 31.7 years.
  • One billion seconds ago it was 1977.
  • One billion minutes ago, the Roman Empire was in full swing.
  • One billion hours ago we were in the stone age.

This number is staggering! The loss of these dollars from the insurance companies causes an increase in insurance premiums for all of us. The overall costs of arson in general are much higher than a dollar sign can depict and there is no price for the loss of life. As with any fire that you have, a complete investigation into the cause of the fire should be sought. If you do not have trained staff, call the state fire marshals office and/or your local investigation team. These people will determine if the fire is a crime. If it is, they will seek the assistance of the local law enforcement.

Listed below are things you can do to greatly increase the success of the fire investigation in these cases while you are on the scene.

  1. Protect the scene from excessive and destructive overhaul. Leave items as they are.
  2. Gather all witness and owner information on site.
  3. Ask the 5 W's.

      Who is involved and was on site prior, during, and after the fire. Who owns the property and/or business? Get a name, date of birth, and a phone number where they can be reached. Who noticed the fire?

      What occurred when these people were there? What did the fire department see and do? What was on fire?

      Why was there a fire? Do they have any ideas as to what happened?

      Where did these people see the initial smoke and/or flames? Where did the fire department make their initial attack? Where is the owner?

      When was the last person in the area? When was the last time the owner has had an insurance claim? For what? When was the last time someone was with the property?

Preserving the scene and asking these simple questions will give the fire investigator a good foundation to build off of.

  • Take The Firehouse.com Fire Poll

    Arson is a crime against people! This month discuss with your people what they can do to better assist in the investigation process. Have a class on fire investigation and limit salvage and overhaul until photographs can be taken. Educate the public and let them know that arson has many motives and is a concern of yours. This effort really does start at the top. All motives of arson are a threat against your firefighter's wellbeing.

    Related Links


    JERRY STREICH is a 21-year veteran of fire service and serves as the fire chief of the Centennial Fire District in Minnesota. Jerry is a certified fire investigator and has a degree in fire science as well as diverse training from the Division of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal of Apprehension, and the National Fire Academy. He has successfully created one of the most successful fire investigation teams in Minnesota which currently has a 98 percent conviction rate. You can reach Jerry by e-mail at jerry@sdiacademy.com.